When will indyref2 happen?

[Malky3]

6 minutes ago, This time Perthshirebell said:

....and tax take increased. 

....by just short of £1Bn less than it was supposed to leaving a great bit black hole. 

[Malky3]

2 minutes ago, Henderson to deliver ..... said:

Personally, I'm unsure why you think your pish poor concern trolling deserves anything other than 'childish nonsense' in return.

Swing and a miss champ.

Hmmmmm.......swing a miss - yet you keep on responding. 

[D Angelo Barksdale]

4 minutes ago, Malky3 said:

Hmmmmm.......swing a miss - yet you keep on responding. 

It was of course you who quoted my post originally.

Another swing and a miss then.

[Baxter Parp]

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/mar/04/snp-exaggerate-oil-revenues - IFS warning! 
https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/463110/Experts-claim-SNP-have-got-sums-wrong-on-oil-revenue - OBR and Oil Experts Warning.
https://www.energyvoice.com/oilandgas/63883/warning-independence-oil-revenue/ - Sir Ian Woods warning! 
That's just the top three that appeared in my google search. 

The white paper came out Nov 2013 and was written about a year before these these nostradamusses were. The oil price collapsed in 2015 so the oil prices used in the white paper were broadly appropriate. Swing and a miss, bud.

[Baxter Parp]

Eh? 
The decision to raise income tax in Scotland was taken by the Scottish Government. it's a devolved matter. 
 

Fucksake, pay attention or f**k off.

[Malky3]

2 minutes ago, Baxter Parp said:

1 hour ago, Malky3 said:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/mar/04/snp-exaggerate-oil-revenues - IFS warning! 
https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/463110/Experts-claim-SNP-have-got-sums-wrong-on-oil-revenue - OBR and Oil Experts Warning.
https://www.energyvoice.com/oilandgas/63883/warning-independence-oil-revenue/ - Sir Ian Woods warning! 
That's just the top three that appeared in my google search. 

The white paper came out Nov 2013 and was written about a year before these these nostradamusses were. The oil price collapsed in 2015 so the oil prices used in the white paper were broadly appropriate. Swing and a miss, bud.

You claimed the figures were not inflated and that no-one knew different. I've proved that 6 months before the Scottish Independence Referendum everyone and their granny was telling Alex Salmond his figures were grossly inflated and yet still the SNP went into the vote claiming the White Paper was fully costed. 

It's a swing that put your balls right out of the park Baxter Parp. You lied and you've been caught out. 

[Malky3]

3 minutes ago, Baxter Parp said:

2 hours ago, Malky3 said:

Eh? 
The decision to raise income tax in Scotland was taken by the Scottish Government. it's a devolved matter. 
 

Fucksake, pay attention or f**k off.

Charming. 

You getting angry, frustrated and abusive changes nothing though. The SNP raised taxes in Scotland and failed to raise the expected tax revenue by almost £1Bn. That's a hell of a fiscal gap for a government that would use sterlingisation to manage the economy after Independence - where there would be no Westminster Government of Union to bail Scotland out. So where would you find your first £1Bn worth of austerity cuts in an Independent Scotland?

[Baxter Parp]

You claimed the figures were not inflated and that no-one knew different. I've proved that 6 months before the Scottish Independence Referendum everyone and their granny was telling Alex Salmond his figures were grossly inflated and yet still the SNP went into the vote claiming the White Paper was fully costed. 
It's a swing that put your balls right out of the park Baxter Parp. You lied and you've been caught out. 

I asked for evidence that the figures in the white paper were known to be wrong at the time of writing not four months after it was published, fuckwit.

[Baxter Parp]

Charming. 
You getting angry, frustrated and abusive changes nothing though. The SNP raised taxes in Scotland and failed to raise the expected tax revenue by almost £1Bn. That's a hell of a fiscal gap for a government that would use sterlingisation to manage the economy after Independence - where there would be no Westminster Government of Union to bail Scotland out. So where would you find your first £1Bn worth of austerity cuts in an Independent Scotland?

"This £737m figure has nothing to do with the Scottish Government’s relative tax shortfall – it is down to i) better HMRC tax data and, ii) weaker rUK NOT Scottish income tax receipts compared to forecast."

https://fraserofallander.org/scottish-economy/fiscal-policy/has-the-scottish-government-received-a-700m-bail-out-from-the-uk-government/

You're wrong and you won't accept the evidence.

[Malky3]

17 minutes ago, Baxter Parp said:

33 minutes ago, Malky3 said:

 

I asked for evidence that the figures in the white paper were known to be wrong at the time of writing not four months after it was published, fuckwit.

No you didn't. Here's what you actually said

Quote

Jesus. The oil revenue forecasts were based on oil industry figures and were not inflated. If you have evidence that anybody knew any better then provide it. There is absolutely no reason to debate with someone who deliberately and wilfully refuses to accept any evidence that contradicts their blinkered point of view.

I've proved, categorically, that the SNP knew the figures were inflated going into the Independence Referendum of 2014 yet still they went into every debate armed with a copy of the White Paper telling everyone it was "fully costed". It was a blatant lie. 

[Malky3]

21 minutes ago, This time Perthshirebell said:

The Scottish increase in tax, increased tax.   It was Scottish independence over taxation that increased tax.  Do you understand?   

Uh-huh, but the SNP had already spent just short of £1Bn more than it raised because their forecasts were wrong. It's hardly a marker of competence. If Scotland was an Independent country and it followed the proposed economic policy of sterlingisation, you would not be afforded any margin of error. There would be no £700m helping hand through the Barnett Formula, no shared risk, and no money tree to shake. Even the fiscal gap that remains would cause Scotland extreme hardship if it was on it's own. 

So, as I've repeatedly asked, if Scotland was Independent where would you find £1Bn per annum of austerity cuts. 

[welshbairn]

3 minutes ago, oaksoft said:

What is missing is a transition to hard facts, genuinely practical solutions, realistic analyses of clear problems ahead and a very clear vision not only of where we are going but how we intend to get there, what timescales we are looking at and the inevitable costs of making that journey in the first place.

The problem is the same as 2014, when Westminster and and the EU refused to discuss future arrangements until we're fully independent. So all we can say is that for a transitional period we will stick with our current currency, the pound, and when the time is right we will  establish our own currency separate from the rUK. We can't make firm statements on how assets and liabilities etc will be divided because Westminster refuses to discuss it, it will depend on negotiations. If Westminster is as cooperative as would be in their interests, and I think they would be, the separation could be as smooth as the break up of Czechoslovakia. Breaking up needn't be hard to do.

[Baxter Parp]

I've proved, categorically, that the SNP knew the figures were inflated going into the Independence Referendum of 2014 yet still they went into every debate armed with a copy of the White Paper telling everyone it was "fully costed". It was a blatant lie. 

Pish. The figures were accurate at the time they were written as I've already patiently explained to you. That noted unionists attempted to rubbish them months later does not change that fact.

[git-intae-thum]

You have to laugh when folk say it's up to the independence side to produce all the evidence as they are the ones wanting change.

Change is a given whether we stay in union or become independent.  Look at the last 5 years.

The question is better framed with regards to what control and choice we have over the changes that are made.

 

[Malky3]

18 minutes ago, oaksoft said:

I haven't seen the polls but you are touching on something here with the ideological thing.

The problem with Yes is that too many are still seen as being stuck in an ideological dream full of unicorns, where there are no problems over things like trade deals, currency, border controls or economics and where the magic money tree funds a socialist utopia full of milk and honey by the majority of voters.

What is missing is a transition to hard facts, genuinely practical solutions, realistic analyses of clear problems ahead and a very clear vision not only of where we are going but how we intend to get there, what timescales we are looking at and the inevitable costs of making that journey in the first place. If Yes can manage that, they have a fighting chance of turning the tide. The general populace is not going to be swayed by continuing fantasy politics. This is one of many lessons Yessers have not yet picked up on. Too many are still fighting the argumjents of 2014 which saw them lose once and will see them lose again. Don't even get me started on the obsession with claiming some moral high ground over No voters.

Yep. It's what I find so disappointing about the discourse right now. It appears that many nationalists are seeking to get those who voted "No" last time round to change our mind using arguments like - 

Going through a bitter divorce with our trading partners is bad, so lets divorce the UK after we divorce the EU. 

Ireland says a hard border will severely damage their economy so we want some of that too. 

Donald Trump is an idiot. Imagine wanting to build a wall to keep the Mexicans out. We want a wall too to keep us apart from the English. 

The UK Prime Minister is posh and well educated, we don't want any of that well educated nonsense running our country. 

Once we have a proper fiscal deficit of our own, we'll be able to do something about the underclass. 

And it's a disgrace that we have people going to foodbanks in the UK - the worlds 5th richest economy - so we should go Independent where we might just hold a top 20 spot and as a poorer, less wealthy nation we'll be able to stop donating to foodbanks. 

Of course if you argue with their logic you are a "troll", a "Yoon", a "Quisling", or "English / Tory / Rich ......... (place whatever derogatory and abusive term you care to use, it'll be allowed anyway)" or simply told you should "f**k off" and that you should be "banned" from posting. One way or another they leave the distinct impression that in their hands an Independent Scotland would be a rather heavy handed Totalitarian State where "re-education centres" might be needed to sort us out. 

If you prove the SNP got something wrong, it's never the SNP's fault. Instead they point in every other direction blaming anything at all in the hope the deflection will make you forget about how useless the Scottish Government actually is. Westminster is the usual target but they aren't beyond making "shit up" about individuals in an attempt to ruin their lives. 

Fair play to the likes of Renton who seems genuinely knowledgeable and to the guy who suggested cutting taxes in an Independent Scotland. If only other Nationalists were able to conduct themselves in a similar way an Independent Scotland might not look quite as repellent as it does right now. 

 

[Cerberus]

Soon.

[Malky3]

28 minutes ago, welshbairn said:

The problem is the same as 2014, when Westminster and and the EU refused to discuss future arrangements until we're fully independent. So all we can say is that for a transitional period we will stick with our current currency, the pound, and when the time is right we will  establish our own currency separate from the rUK. We can't make firm statements on how assets and liabilities etc will be divided because Westminster refuses to discuss it, it will depend on negotiations. If Westminster is as cooperative as would be in their interests, and I think they would be, the separation could be as smooth as the break up of Czechoslovakia. Breaking up needn't be hard to do.

So what you are saying is that everyone in Scotland should gamble all they've got on an ideological leap of faith that might see us without a trade deal with our biggest and second biggest customer base. You want us to put everything we own, our livelihoods, and the lifelong prospects of our children and grandchildren on Nicola Sturgeon to sort our future. 

Well done on at least being honest, but nah. It's still a No from me. 

[welshbairn]

1 minute ago, Malky3 said:

It's still a No from me. 

Gosh. I'm sure we'll get by without you.

Edited August 6, 2019 by welshbairn

[Malky3]

39 minutes ago, This time Perthshirebell said:

You need to provide evidence that anti-Scottish measures are better for Scotland and thus far you've shown nothing.    Please either show a shred of evidence anti-Scottish measures are good for Scotland or exit the stage right.    We need evidence the 100 plus billion deficit UK is capable as a going concern.  Evidence soon or rich Scotland must leave so we can continue being the lowest taxed country in these islands.   

Please at least try and be better.  

You'll need to first show me examples of anti Scottish measures. 

[welshbairn]

10 minutes ago, Malky3 said:

You want us to put everything we own, our livelihoods, and the lifelong prospects of our children and grandchildren on Nicola Sturgeon to sort our future.

I'd put exponentially more trust in her than Boris Fucking Johnson.

Edited August 6, 2019 by welshbairn