When will indyref2 happen?

[welshbairn]

1 hour ago, strichener said:

You are (mostly) correct that we are not amending non-EU competent law however I disagree that it will be "simply a case of porting" as you have put it.  If you take the IPA 2016 as a more recent example, this specifically refers to the Police Act 1997, Northern Ireland Act 1998, Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act 2000, Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act 2016, Political Parties, Elections and Referendums Act 2000, Social Security Fraud Act 2001, Social Security Fraud Act (Northern Ireland) 2001, Public Finance and Accountability (Scotland) Act 2000, Justice (Northern Ireland) Act 2002, Proceeds of Crime Act 2002, Police Reform Act 2002, Privacy and Electronic Communications (EC Directive) Regulations 2003, Audit and Accountability (Northern Ireland) Order 2003, Public Audit (Wales) Act 2004, Constitutional Reform Act 2005, Commissioners for Revenue and Customs Act 2005, Serious Crime Act 2007, Legal Services Act 2007, Regulatory Enforcement and Sanctions Act 2008, Counter-Terrorism Act 2008, Borders, Citizenship and Immigration Act 2009, Marine and Coastal Access Act 2009, Terrorist Asset-Freezing etc. Act 2010 and at least a dozen more. 

Hardly any Acts that are passed exist in their own bubble and many repeal or re-word previous acts.  Moreover, the actual implementation of the Acts is frequently by secondary legislation such as SIs.  There will be no copying and pasting with a dose of Ctrl-H in Microsoft Word.  There is also a difference between passing laws and passing competent laws and I for one would rather the latter.  @Ad Lib has noted before some of the shit legislation that the country has passed (and this is not explicitly a Scottish or UK trait rather both have history in trying to do so)

I have no doubt that Scotland would, in the event of a Yes vote, be able to setup the necessary legal framework to allow membership of the EU.  It just won't be on the timescales previously mentioned for independence.

BTW. the aforementioned IPA 2016 was found to be incomaptible with EU Law (specifically GDPR) hence why I used the (mostly) qualifier at the beginning of the post.

All of that is about withdrawing from the UK, it has little or nothing to do with our rejoining the EU, which was the topic. Who would have thought that withdrawing from a 300 year old union might be a bit complicated?

Edited June 10, 2019 by welshbairn

[AUFC90]

It doesn't matter if we technically have to apply to the EU or not. It will be done very quickly and will be the fastest transition period that can possibly be done. As with 2014. Anyone suggesting this will be a difficult process are either completely thick or at it. Both sides will be working to achieve the same thing and will be done in no time.

Negotiations with rUK will be the time consuming ones.

[Ad Lib]

5 hours ago, Tibbermoresaint said:

We've been in the EU for 46 years. We meet all membership requirements. There is nothing to be gained by either party if we're not in the EU. Realpolitik wins every time.

Only someone who’s been in a coma for the last three years could say this with a straight face.

The EU doesn’t do special deals. If you want to embark on a major realignment of legal and political structures, fine, but be under no illusion that the EU’s rules-based order will make life easy for you.

The same, by the way, is true of the UK.

[Ad Lib]

3 hours ago, welshbairn said:

All of that is about withdrawing from the UK, it has little or nothing to do with our rejoining the EU, which was the topic. Who would have thought that withdrawing from a 300 year old union might be a bit complicated?

The terms on which an independent Scotland leaves the UK will have a significant bearing on the timescale of EU accession, reconvergence timeline with the acquis, any arrangements that are likely to be required for the Scotland/England land border, the Scotland/Northern Ireland sea border etc. The terms of Brexit and how we domesticate EU law on the way out is fiendishly complicated and would have to be worked in to any UK divorce talks.

This would have been *way* simpler back in 2014. Now it would be like 4 dimensional chess. Our “future relationship” with the rUK will be of the essence in any preliminary talks about whether/when/how Scotland joins EFTA as a prelude to full EU membership, let alone EU membership itself.

They’re really messily interwoven.

[strichener]

3 hours ago, welshbairn said:

All of that is about withdrawing from the UK, it has little or nothing to do with our rejoining the EU, which was the topic. Who would have thought that withdrawing from a 300 year old union might be a bit complicated?

Really?  The only way that Scotland is getting  membership of the EU is to leave the UK.  This makes the two issues interdependent and therefore the complexities of leaving a 300 year union are very much to do with joining the EU.  It is especially relevant when it is posted that the day we leave the UK will be the same day we join the EU.

[welshbairn]

4 minutes ago, Ad Lib said:

The terms on which an independent Scotland leaves the UK will have a significant bearing on the timescale of EU accession, reconvergence timeline with the acquis, any arrangements that are likely to be required for the Scotland/England land border, the Scotland/Northern Ireland sea border etc. The terms of Brexit and how we domesticate EU law on the way out is fiendishly complicated and would have to be worked in to any UK divorce talks.

This would have been *way* simpler back in 2014. Now it would be like 4 dimensional chess. Our “future relationship” with the rUK will be of the essence in any preliminary talks about whether/when/how Scotland joins EFTA as a prelude to full EU membership, let alone EU membership itself.

They’re really messily interwoven.

That all depends on how messy the UK's divorce is from the EU, or if it happens at all, which is entirely unknown.

[Kuro]

10 hours ago, strichener said:

I would counter that the very opposite is true, no country has gained independence and joined the EU on the same day.  The Lisbon Treaty contained changes to the accession process to allow overseas territories to be re-classified easily but still contains no alternative to the methods of membership open to a new member and be under no illusion, Scotland will be a new member.

No country that was already an EU member has gained independence.

[strichener]

4 minutes ago, Kuro said:

No country that was already an EU member has gained independence.

Which will also be the case for Scotland.  I'm not seeing the relevance.

[Kuro]

15 minutes ago, strichener said:

Which will also be the case for Scotland.  I'm not seeing the relevance.

There are 5.4 million EU citizens in Scotland, who have voted overwhelmingly to remain EU citizens and who the EU want to remain EU citizens.  Show me one comparable example from history and I'll accept you're not a trolling fuckwit.  Since we both know you can't, hows about cutting to the chase and hauding your wheesht.

[strichener]

5 minutes ago, Kuro said:

There are 5.4 million EU citizens in Scotland, who have voted overwhelmingly to remain EU citizens and who the EU want to remain EU citizens.  Show me one comparable example from history and I'll accept you're not a trolling fuckwit.  Since we both know you can't, hows about cutting to the chase and hauding your wheesht.

Conversely you cannot show one example of a country gaining independence and gaining entry to the EU without following the application process.  It has never happened and nothing from the EU would indicate that Scotland would be any different.

You can call me a troll but as has been pointed out by someone with far more understanding of the law than you or I, the EU is a stickler for their rules.  I guess that makes you the fuckwit but then again I seriously doubt that this is news to anybody.

[Kuro]

Just now, strichener said:

Conversely you cannot show one example of a country gaining independence and gaining entry to the EU without following the application process.  It has never happened and nothing from the EU would indicate that Scotland would be any different.

You can call me a troll but as has been pointed out by someone with far more understanding of the law than you or I, the EU is a stickler for their rules.  I guess that makes you the fuckwit but then again I seriously doubt that this is news to anybody.

Because not one country in history has ever been in Scotland's position. Its unique.  And actually lots of things from the EU have heavily indicated things would be very different from us, you're just choosing to ignore them as you're a trolling little fuckwit.

[strichener]

Just now, Kuro said:

Because not one country in history has ever been in Scotland's position. Its unique.  And actually lots of things from the EU have heavily indicated things would be very different from us, you're just choosing to ignore them as you're a trolling little fuckwit.

Our position isn't unique.  We are not independent, we are not currently an EU member state and we are not currently applying to join the EU.  There is nothing unique about our situation.

Now IF Brexit is delivered AND Scotland then becomes independent then we will be in the same position as other countries that are outside the EU wanting in.  Again we will not be unique, we may be closer to convergence with the EU but we will still have to apply and be accepted.

It is only idiots like yourself that appear to think we can get a day return to Brussels to sign our membership form.

[Kuro]

Just now, strichener said:

Our position isn't unique.  We are not independent, we are not currently an EU member state and we are not currently applying to join the EU.  There is nothing unique about our situation.

Now IF Brexit is delivered AND Scotland then becomes independent then we will be in the same position as other countries that are outside the EU wanting in.  Again we will not be unique, we may be closer to convergence with the EU but we will still have to apply and be accepted.

It is only idiots like yourself that appear to think we can get a day return to Brussels to sign our membership form.

If it isn't unique, you'll have that example of a similar situation I asked for then?  Yeah?  Any time now...

[strichener]

Just now, Kuro said:

If it isn't unique, you'll have that example of a similar situation I asked for then?  Yeah?  Any time now...

Wales.

[Kuro]

2 minutes ago, strichener said:

Our position isn't unique.  We are not independent, we are not currently an EU member state and we are not currently applying to join the EU.  There is nothing unique about our situation.

Now IF Brexit is delivered AND Scotland then becomes independent then we will be in the same position as other countries that are outside the EU wanting in.  Again we will not be unique, we may be closer to convergence with the EU but we will still have to apply and be accepted.

It is only idiots like yourself that appear to think we can get a day return to Brussels to sign our membership form.

And actually it was a woman called Angela K Bourne who told me there is no prospect whatsoever of Scotland being out of the EU for even a day if it votes for independence.  Google her, and see if you think she's an idiot.

[Kuro]

Just now, strichener said:

Wales.

I must have missed the time Wales voted for independence and joined the EU as an independent country

[strichener]

1 minute ago, Kuro said:

I must have missed the time Wales voted for independence and joined the EU as an independent country

As must I with Scotland.

[strichener]

3 minutes ago, Kuro said:

And actually it was a woman called Angela K Bourne who told me there is no prospect whatsoever of Scotland being out of the EU for even a day if it votes for independence.  Google her, and see if you think she's an idiot.

Was she partnering Condelesa for a game of golf. 

[Kuro]

5 minutes ago, strichener said:

As must I with Scotland.

Trolling fuckwit confirmed, as that's obviously the hypothetical being discussed.

[Tibbermoresaint]

1 hour ago, Ad Lib said:

Only someone who’s been in a coma for the last three years could say this with a straight face.

The EU doesn’t do special deals. If you want to embark on a major realignment of legal and political structures, fine, but be under no illusion that the EU’s rules-based order will make life easy for you.

The same, by the way, is true of the UK.

Just bizarre. The EU27 have spent the last couple of years doing a special deal. Every deal they've done with a member state has been a special deal. No-one can accuse them of not being pragmatic in that time.