When will indyref2 happen?

[Adam]

On BBC News in Kirkcaldy.
"I'm a Nationalist and last time I voted for freedom. I also voted for Brexit."
"And what will you do next time?"
"I'll vote to stay in the UK."
"Why?"
"Immigration."

Saw this as well. Jesus Christ.

Probably called at the wrong time, can't see anything other than another defeat.

[welshbairn]

21 minutes ago, Bishop Briggs said:

Only independent countries can apply for EU membership. There is no provision for fast-tracking applications under the EU Treaties. The Treaties would need to be amended to facilitate fast-tracking. Such Treaty amendments must be ratified by the Parliaments of all the Member States. 

The application process will start after independence day, i.e. after the ScotExit deal with rUK is completed. Joining EFTA and the EEA (Single Market) would be quicker easier. We would need our own currency to join EEA or the EU. 

The only criteria is matching the conditions of membership, if we do, the treaties would not have to be amended. There's no queue to join. We could have any currency we choose, so long as we make a non binding commitment to join the Euro eventually. No country has been forced to join the Euro despite making such a commitment.

P.S. An EFTA deal might well be a short term option. 

Edited March 13, 2017 by welshbairn

[Bishop Briggs]

4 minutes ago, Shades75 said:

Maybe you should tell the Spokeswoman that Scotland couldn't be fast-tracked.  She seems unaware.

Then, if she's talking rubbish about Scotland being fast-tracked, how can you cite her as an authority that Scotland would be ejected from the EU in the first place.

Is that not contradictory?

I respect that you're well versed on the minutiae of EU/EFTA/EEA treaties and membership.  I'll pretty much take your word for it on these issues, unless something doesn't ring true or is blatant, because you know more than me about it.

I will check for bafflement by bullshit though .

I have not seen the Commission spokesperson's comments on fast-tracking. Do you have a link?

Here's the Independent article on his comments - http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/scottish-eu-independence-referendum-scotland-join-queue-membership-apply-a7627201.html. 

"Wading into the debate on the Scottish Government’s plans for a second vote, a spokesman for the European Commission (EC) said Scotland would not be granted automatic access to the EU if it split from the rest of the UK.

At a briefing in Brussels, Margaritis Schinas said: "The Barroso doctrine, would that apply? Yes that would apply, obviously."

He was referencing former commission president Jose Manuel Barroso, who set out the legal view that if one part of an EU country became an independent state it would have to apply for EU membership."

There's no mention of fast-tracking.

FYI, here's the Barroso letter - https://www.parliament.uk/documents/lords-committees/economic-affairs/ScottishIndependence/EA68_Scotland_and_the_EU_Barroso's_reply_to_Lord_Tugendhat_101212.pdf.

[HTG]

Teresa May - "politics is not a game". No fucking shite Sherlock!  Maybe you could think that through again on the back of Cameron running a general election ticket in 2015 that promised a referendum he didn't believe in, which he campaigned against and which has landed these islands in a whole pile of shite just to stem the flow of Tory votes to UKIP. 

But aye, it's not a game Teresa. Did you tell Cameron that in the run up to 2015 or did you just hide then, the same as you did through the EU Referendum campaign. 

Tories have played a game for 2 years so they can lecture absolutely nobody

[Shades75]

4 minutes ago, Bishop Briggs said:

I have not seen the Commission spokesperson's comments on fast-tracking. Do you have a link?

Here's the Independent article on his comments - http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/scottish-eu-independence-referendum-scotland-join-queue-membership-apply-a7627201.html. 

"Wading into the debate on the Scottish Government’s plans for a second vote, a spokesman for the European Commission (EC) said Scotland would not be granted automatic access to the EU if it split from the rest of the UK.

At a briefing in Brussels, Margaritis Schinas said: "The Barroso doctrine, would that apply? Yes that would apply, obviously."

He was referencing former commission president Jose Manuel Barroso, who set out the legal view that if one part of an EU country became an independent state it would have to apply for EU membership."

There's no mention of fast-tracking.

FYI, here's the Barroso letter - https://www.parliament.uk/documents/lords-committees/economic-affairs/ScottishIndependence/EA68_Scotland_and_the_EU_Barroso's_reply_to_Lord_Tugendhat_101212.pdf.

I can't find it now!

It's similar to your article though and I believe it is an expansion of it.

There was a paragraph listing the countries who have applied, or are applying to join the EU, where it was said that Scotland would be added.

It then went on to say that Scotland could be fast-tracked (the exact phrase) because our legislation is already in tune with the EU's and therefore there would be little to negotiate, in that respect.

[DigOutYourSoul]

The main questions around currency and economy are still there. There's now less uncertainty over leaving Europe as it'll be happening anyway, but possibly more uncertainty around the economy with the North Sea decline.

Interesting one. I still think she's gone too early but can see exactly why she's done it. Politically it's a great move as it just throws a massive spanner in the works for Westminster in that it means they could have to manage the two at the same time.

[jamamafegan]

24 minutes ago, Adam said:

 

Saw this as well. Jesus Christ.

Probably called at the wrong time, can't see anything other than another defeat.

 

I don't think the timing is wrong - but I definitely think people are underestimating the silent majority. The big silent issue this time is immigration. There will be plenty of Yes voters who will be voting No because they'll be afraid of immigrants coming here, taking our jobs and killing us all. I think Nicola has to address the immigration issue to win many over. How she will do that I don't know. 

[welshbairn]

1 minute ago, Shades75 said:

I can't find it now!

It's similar to your article though and I believe it is an expansion of it.

There was a paragraph listing the countries who have applied, or are applying to join the EU, where it was said that Scotland would be added.

It then went on to say that Scotland could be fast-tracked (the exact phrase) because our legislation is already in tune with the EU's and therefore there would be little to negotiate, in that respect.

The thing is, the term fast tracking is meaningless. You either meet the EU conditions for membership or you don't. There is no queue. 

[Cerberus]

May will be busy with Brexit but she'll dig out Baron Darling of Roulanish again.

[Bishop Briggs]

11 minutes ago, welshbairn said:

The only criteria is matching the conditions of membership, if we do, the treaties would not have to be amended. There's no queue to join. We could have any currency we choose, so long as we make a non binding commitment to join the Euro eventually. No country has been forced to join the Euro despite making such a commitment.

P.S. An EFTA deal might well be a short term option. 

There is a queue to join - Albania, Macedonia, Montenegro, Serbia and IIRC Bosnia. Iceland and Switzerland have withdrawn their applications.

The currency issue relates to the Financial Services and Economics and Monetary chapters of the acquis - https://ec.europa.eu/neighbourhood-enlargement/policy/conditions-membership/chapters-of-the-acquis_en

Chapter 17 - "The acquis in the area of economic and monetary policy contains specific rules requiring the independence of central banks in Member States, prohibiting direct financing of the public sector by the central banks and prohibiting privileged access of the public sector to financial institutions. Member States are expected to co-ordinate their economic policies and are subject to the Stability and Growth Pact on fiscal surveillance."

So how can iScotland comply without its own currency?  

Do you honestly think that the EU would accept a currency union with the UK after Brexit? 

[doulikefish]

2 minutes ago, Bishop Briggs said:

There is a queue to join - Albania, Macedonia, Montenegro, Serbia and IIRC Bosnia.

 

[NotThePars]

 

He's persistent I'll give him that. 

[Bishop Briggs]

8 minutes ago, Shades75 said:

I can't find it now!

It's similar to your article though and I believe it is an expansion of it.

There was a paragraph listing the countries who have applied, or are applying to join the EU, where it was said that Scotland would be added.

It then went on to say that Scotland could be fast-tracked (the exact phrase) because our legislation is already in tune with the EU's and therefore there would be little to negotiate, in that respect.

There is no doubt that in certain areas, an independent Scotland would be able to demonstrate compliance with chapters of the acquis - https://ec.europa.eu/neighbourhood-enlargement/policy/conditions-membership/chapters-of-the-acquis_en.

However, that is practical assessment rather than a change in the application process, i.e. fast-tracking or processing Scotland's application ahead of the other applicant countries. 

[Shades75]

2 minutes ago, Bishop Briggs said:

There is no doubt that in certain areas, an independent Scotland would be able to demonstrate compliance with chapters of the acquis - https://ec.europa.eu/neighbourhood-enlargement/policy/conditions-membership/chapters-of-the-acquis_en.

However, that is practical assessment rather than a change in the application process, i.e. fast-tracking or processing Scotland's application ahead of the other applicant countries. 

Do you not think that preference would be given to Scotland, being that we've already had members sitting in the EU parliament, that we've worked with and contributed to the EU for many years and that our legislation fits?

The other countries haven't.

I think reason would prevail.  It makes no sense for either side to put up road blocks. 

[Mr Heliums]

18 minutes ago, jamamafegan said:

 There will be plenty of Yes voters who will be voting No because they'll be afraid of immigrants coming here, taking our jobs and killing us all. I think Nicola has to address the immigration issue to win many over. How she will do that I don't know. 

I'd love to see a Venn diagram of all those people who happily use the automated checkouts at Tesco and then go home and complain about immigrants stealing our jobs.

[Ivo den Bieman]

9 minutes ago, Bishop Briggs said:

There is a queue to join - Albania, Macedonia, Montenegro, Serbia and IIRC Bosnia. Iceland and Switzerland have withdrawn their applications.

 

Scaremongering nonsense. There is no "queue" to join the EU..these countries are progressing (or not) each at their own pace. For example, Albania doesn't have to wait in line whilst Serbia completes the process (or not).

Each of these countries is in the EU accession process and developing it at their own pace. The progress of other applications is totally irrelevant in each indivdual case.

Just for info, Montenegro should join pretty soon (Russia's state-sponsored coup failed and the use the euro already); Serbia is getting cold feet on the idea as nationalist drumbeats, little green men and Putin spending a lot of money on burnishing his image drains the EU's lustre; Bosnia is, charitably, a decade away from joining and probably much longer than that; Macedonia hasn't had a functioning government for the best part of two years and may yet be facing civil war later in the year so I can't see EU accession being pursued robustly at this time (the Greeks would block it anyway).

The broader point is that whatever the merits or demerits of a future independent Scotland's case to join the EU (or even better, be seen as a successor state to the former UK), it has nothing whatever to do with the (lack of) progress made by the countries you mention.

[mizfit]

1 minute ago, Ivo den Bieman said:

Scaremongering nonsense. There is no "queue" to join the EU..these countries are progressing (or not) each at their own pace. For example, Albania doesn't have to wait in line whilst Serbia completes the process (or not).

Each of these countries is in the EU accession process and developing it at their own pace. The progress of other applications is totally irrelevant in each indivdual case.

Just for info, Montenegro should join pretty soon (Russia's state-sponsored coup failed and the use the euro already); Serbia is getting cold feet on the idea as nationalist drumbeats, little green men and Putin spending a lot of money on burnishing his image drains the EU's lustre; Bosnia is, charitably, a decade away from joining and probably much longer than that; Macedonia hasn't had a functioning government for the best part of two years and may yet be facing civil war later in the year so I can't see EU accession being pursued robustly at this time (the Greeks would block it anyway).

The broader point is that whatever the merits or demerits of a future independent Scotland's case to join the EU (or even better, be seen as a successor state to the former UK), it has nothing whatever to do with the (lack of) progress made by the countries you mention.

Whats happening in Macedonia? 

[pandarilla]

Will the Russians still be invading?

I certainly hope they interfere and get the outcome they want (Putin the tinkerer).

[Bishop Briggs]

16 minutes ago, doulikefish said:

https://www.thecourier.co.uk/fp/news/politics/scottish-politics/360283/independent-scotland-behind-montenegro-serbia-bosnia-turkey-eu-queue-says-mep/ - "Independent Scotland behind ‘Montenegro, Serbia, Bosnia, Turkey’ in EU queue, says MEP"

Montenegro application timetable - https://ec.europa.eu/neighbourhood-enlargement/countries/detailed-country-information/montenegro_en

Serbia's application will make further progress this year - https://ec.europa.eu/neighbourhood-enlargement/countries/detailed-country-information/serbia_en. Quite a lot of chapters closed, i.e. complete.

Edited March 13, 2017 by Bishop Briggs

[Ivo den Bieman]

wow, the word of one Spanish MEP. is that the same guy that said that Spain would definitely be blocking an iScot's application, yeah?

I also fail to see where in that Montenegro application summary it says that everyone else has to wait in line until they are successfully admitted to the EU. Many former Warsaw Pact countries, and Slovenia, joined on the same day in June 2004. Turkey has been trying to join unsuccessfully for a long time and many countries have joined successfully whilst their application has stalled.

There is no queue, however much it might suit your agenda to pretend there is.

Edited March 13, 2017 by Ivo den Bieman