When will indyref2 happen?

[RuMoore]

17 hours ago, Stellaboz said:

But Brexit wasn't really being discussed. Certainly not at a very loud level.

It was being discussed quite regularly, it was used as an argument as to why people should have voted for Scottish Independence. UKIP had also just swept up in the European elections prior to the 2014 referendum. 

[Theyellowbox]

16 hours ago, The_Kincardine said:

Aside from all their shenanigans, they've put Indy on life support yet you still encourage others to vote for them.

 

Always find the view that SNP IS independence an interesting one. I seriously doubt that many who were pro independence are now no longer just because of the SNP becoming a complete clusterfuck.

Absolutely, those that voted SNP probably think twice as to whether they do next time. Who wouldn't.

I'd doubt you'd find much of a drift from SNP to tories. I'm not convinced massive droves would go to Labour given Starmers Brexity turnaround to gain votes down south and Lib Dem wouldn't entice many.

You can absolutely see who some of the old guard SNP kept well clear of the leadership contest. Aside from some being implicated. HY is clearly going to be the fall guy here.

Anyhow, if the finances become too horrific, the SNP can just reform, keep the same logo, HQ and claim all the election wins from history. That's how it works isn't it?

[edinabear]

47 minutes ago, Theyellowbox said:

Always find the view that SNP IS independence an interesting one. I seriously doubt that many who were pro independence are now no longer just because of the SNP becoming a complete clusterfuck.

Absolutely, those that voted SNP probably think twice as to whether they do next time. Who wouldn't.

I'd doubt you'd find much of a drift from SNP to tories. I'm not convinced massive droves would go to Labour given Starmers Brexity turnaround to gain votes down south and Lib Dem wouldn't entice many.

You can absolutely see who some of the old guard SNP kept well clear of the leadership contest. Aside from some being implicated. HY is clearly going to be the fall guy here.

Anyhow, if the finances become too horrific, the SNP can just reform, keep the same logo, HQ and claim all the election wins from history. That's how it works isn't it?

If worried retreat to your sevcoooo comfort blanket. 

[The_Kincardine]

34 minutes ago, Theyellowbox said:

Always find the view that SNP IS independence an interesting one. I seriously doubt that many who were pro independence are now no longer just because of the SNP becoming a complete clusterfuck.

It isn't the hard-core, "Eat grass than labour under the yoke of the Basturt English" types you need to worry about.  It's the 'soft middle' swing voters that matter.  Estimates vary but it's somewhere between 30-40% of the voters and many of them absolutely would vote for non-Nat parties because, in the minds of many, the "SNP IS independence" and why would they think otherwise?  They've been teased for years by Sturgeon that IR2 is coming 'next year' and we can rid Scotland of the stench of Tory corruption.  Now many see that IR2 is in a cryo-chamber and that HR is a stinky midden.  So Sturgeon et al have damaged the message as well as showing themselves as deeply flawed messengers.

45 minutes ago, Theyellowbox said:

Anyhow, if the finances become too horrific, the SNP can just reform, keep the same logo, HQ and claim all the election wins from history. That's how it works isn't it?

I welcome ScotNat 5088 being 'demoted' from HR and starting afresh at local council level.  Swigging Buckie on an open top bus as they parade to the Civic Centre to celebrate winning the Motherwell West council ward in a by-election?

[betting competition]

17 hours ago, The_Kincardine said:

Not half as depressing as - after all the lies, cheating, cover-ups, half-truths, deception, incompetence, troughing, sleaze and mendacity - you recommending people to vote SNP.

Which political party doesn't have lies, cheating, cover-ups, half-truths, deception, incompetence, troughing, sleaze and mendacity?  

[Theyellowbox]

8 minutes ago, The_Kincardine said:

I welcome ScotNat 5088 being 'demoted' from HR and starting afresh at local council level.  Swigging Buckie on an open top bus as they parade to the Civic Centre to celebrate winning the Motherwell West council ward in a by-election?

You say it as if local SNP councilors don't already swig from bottles of Buckie in public. Yet to come across any SNP local councilor who isn't the kind of person you'd avoid at all cost in any social situation. 

13 minutes ago, edinabear said:

If worried retreat to your sevcoooo comfort blanket. 

What's a Sevco?  we are talking about severe financial mismanagement by a small group of charlatans that the masses in the wider group cannot see that they are being rinsed for cash with never delivered promises. 

[The_Kincardine]

19 minutes ago, betting competition said:

Which political party doesn't have lies, cheating, cover-ups, half-truths, deception, incompetence, troughing, sleaze and mendacity?  

One of the selling points of Indy was to escape Tory sleaze, as was repeated often and sanctimoniously.  The Tartan Troughers have sullied not only their own but the Nat movement's credibility in that regard.

[Thistle_do_nicely]

i mean i want scotland to be an independent country given how cartoonishly awful the Tories are (and Lord Procurator of Fiscal is hardly a fucking inspiring alternative to them tbh), but i kinda wish there were more options to vote for than just the SNP/Greens/Alba Da's towards keeping pressure on for that. Greens maybe the best of them at the moment but I'm a car owner, so it feels hypocritical. still, afaik they aren't ran with an iron fist by Harvie and have an embarrasing Father Ted "money just resting in my account" fiasco unfolding. Unlike, well, the SNP.

just need to keep an eye on this as it rumbles on and on really, can only hold my nose and vote for them up to a point.

Edited April 18, 2023 by Thistle_do_nicely

[ScotiaNostra]

2 minutes ago, Thistle_do_nicely said:

i mean i want scotland to be an independent country given how cartoonishly awful the Tories are (and Lord Procurator of Fiscal is hardly a fucking inspiring alternative to them tbh), but i kinda wish there were more options to vote for than just the SNP/Greens/Alba Da's towards keeping pressure on for that.

just need to keep an eye on this as it rumbles on and on really, can only hold my nose and vote for them up to a point.

Your not alone

[SouthLanarkshireWhite]

13 hours ago, Thistle_do_nicely said:

i mean i want scotland to be an independent country given how cartoonishly awful the Tories are (and Lord Procurator of Fiscal is hardly a fucking inspiring alternative to them tbh), but i kinda wish there were more options to vote for than just the SNP/Greens/Alba Da's towards keeping pressure on for that. Greens maybe the best of them at the moment but I'm a car owner, so it feels hypocritical. still, afaik they aren't ran with an iron fist by Harvie and have an embarrasing Father Ted "money just resting in my account" fiasco unfolding. Unlike, well, the SNP.

just need to keep an eye on this as it rumbles on and on really, can only hold my nose and vote for them up to a point.

i am interested in who exactly would govern this future independent country if not the Nats, Greens, Albas? The independent Scottish government would be filled with the same  quality of politician we have now except now they would have free rein to do anything without reference to Westminster and any checks the make on them (accepting they hardly cover themselves in glory). The standard of person involved is woeful, and they are lording it over the country as politicians with no experience of anything much beyond being a politician (or councillor). 

Desperate days. 

[DeeTillEhDeh]

7 minutes ago, SouthLanarkshireWhite said:

i am interested in who exactly would govern this future independent country if not the Nats, Greens, Albas? The independent Scottish government would be filled with the same  quality of politician we have now except now they would have free rein to do anything without reference to Westminster and any checks the make on them (accepting they hardly cover themselves in glory). The standard of person involved is woeful, and they are lording it over the country as politicians with no experience of anything much beyond being a politician (or councillor). 

Desperate days. 

You could say the same at Westminster - someone like 30p Lee would be nowhere near getting elected never mind being where he is now.

[SouthLanarkshireWhite]

16 minutes ago, DeeTillEhDeh said:

You could say the same at Westminster - someone like 30p Lee would be nowhere near getting elected never mind being where he is now.

Don't necessarily disagree.

I just perceive the risk to all of us as being lower with the status quo than allowing this shower loose on building a new country with all the organisations, institutions and relationships that would need to constructed and developed. The idea that they operate on a higher plane, both on a  moral and capability level, has been and well and truly decimated. 

[DeeTillEhDeh]

1 minute ago, SouthLanarkshireWhite said:

Don't necessarily disagree.

I just perceive the risk to all of us as being lower with the status quo than allowing this shower loose on building a new country with all the organisations, institutions and relationships that would need to constructed and developed. The idea that they operate on a higher plane, both on a  moral and capability level, has been and well and truly decimated. 

For me it's always been about the decentralising of power.  For all its faults the Scottish Parliament is a damn sight more democratic than that farce at Westminster.

[Snobot]

24 minutes ago, DeeTillEhDeh said:

For me it's always been about the decentralising of power.  For all its faults the Scottish Parliament is a damn sight more democratic than that farce at Westminster.

Indeed. Unless every pro Union politician decides to flee Scotland on some future Independence Day and no unionist / conservative candidate enters politics ever again thereafter, there will presumably be a similar spectrum of politicians in an independent Scotland, arranged along party lines, for whom we can vote every 5 years. If Scotland then chooses to vote for some home-grown rabid right winger, Marxist, beige coalition etc so be it, that is democracy. We can vote them out after a few years, as would be our right.
 

It is a weird lack of imagination that sees only a future nationalist representation for all time coming. It’s like suggesting only Brexiteers can ever govern the UK from 2016 onwards. 
 

It is fine to have reservations about the current quality of candidate - I find myself somewhat adrift after recent events. But how can anyone look at Westminster as some paragon of virtue and competence is utterly beyond me. If Holyrood is a stinky midden at present, Westminster is like Jeffrey Dahmer’s freezer after a lengthy power cut. 

[SouthLanarkshireWhite]

45 minutes ago, DeeTillEhDeh said:

For me it's always been about the decentralising of power.  For all its faults the Scottish Parliament is a damn sight more democratic than that farce at Westminster.

At the same time are you wanting us back in the EU?

[DeeTillEhDeh]

39 minutes ago, SouthLanarkshireWhite said:

At the same time are you wanting us back in the EU?

And your point is?

[The_Kincardine]

1 hour ago, DeeTillEhDeh said:

For me it's always been about the decentralising of power.  For all its faults the Scottish Parliament is a damn sight more democratic than that farce at Westminster.

If you followed either 'The Ferries' or 'That Salmond Stuff' - either of which should have led to resignations or sackings - and saw how poorly enabled HR committees are to bring government to account - then you can't possibly vaunt HR's democracy.  A sleekit operator like Sturgeon - realising committees are toothless - ran rings round them.

Scotland was cursed with 8 years of Sturgeon's lies, deceit, mendacity, redaction and bluster and HR wasn't able to touch her.

[Blue Brazil Forever]

1 hour ago, DeeTillEhDeh said:

For me it's always been about the decentralising of power.  For all its faults the Scottish Parliament is a damn sight more democratic than that farce at Westminster.

If you want more decentralising  of power, then stay well clear of Brussels and the EU.

[SouthLanarkshireWhite]

35 minutes ago, DeeTillEhDeh said:

And your point is?

I think you know. The EU is not about decentralised power and decision making. Get rid of Westminster and replace with Brussels - is that a noticeable improvement?

PS before you ask I voted to stay in the EU.

[Antlion]

13 minutes ago, SouthLanarkshireWhite said:

I think you know. The EU is not about decentralised power and decision making. Get rid of Westminster and replace with Brussels - is that a noticeable improvement?

PS before you ask I voted to stay in the EU.

Will Brussels hold the reserved powers Westminster does?