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When will indyref2 happen?


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Indyref2  

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21 hours ago, Dawson Park Boy said:

Okay, let’s give this pension thing a go once again.

First of all, I have never worked in the pensions industry or have any special knowledge other than what any normal person can pick up from news reports or the media. So that’s my starting point. Maybe LB might join in as he did appear to have some insight into the topic.

1. When you contribute to NI , your contributions go immediately to paying pensions to those currently retired. In other words, there is NO pot as you have in company pension schemes or indeed in some public sector schemes such as teachers, police, health service, etc. That is the crucial point.

2. Over time you do however build up, through your contributions, an obligation for the state (UK at present) to pay you out when you reach pension age. Over the years there have been things like Graduated Pensions, SERPS etc, which, depending on how much you contribute give you an amount higher than the basic OAP.

3. The amount you get and any annual increase is a political matter and is determined by the government of the day e.g. the triple lock, inflation, etc. and has nothing to do with how much you may have contributed.

4. If Scotland were to vote for independence, your NI contributions and subsequent pension would be determined by your residence on the date of independence. No doubt there will be anomalies but let’s put those aside for now.

5. At that point RUK pensioners will be paid out from RUK contributors and Scottish pensioners from Scottish contributors. Exactly the same for both jurisdictions.

6. The liabilities built up within the UK system by Scottish pensioners will be taken on by the SG at independence date and it will be up to them as to how they deal with their state pension liabilities based on contributions thereafter. Just remember that the SG will be receiving all tax and national insurance receipts from independence date into the future.

7.The political worry for voters is as to whether the SG has the means to honour those liabilities bearing in mind that it’s taxpayer base is older and has fewer high earners than RUK(think London and the South East)

8.Refer to the report just out by the economist John McLaren regarding the Scottish taxpayer base relating to current tax devolution which means SG has to tax higher to produce the same revenue and is heading towards a large black hole. These matters may be of no concern to voters but will obviously come out in the lead up to any referendum

Ive  tried to lay out my thoughts on the basic principles involved and maybe others in the industry could add their wisdom.

We can come back to your specific queries in due course but I’ve done my best to expound how I I think it would work.

 

Thanks for your very detailed response.  It has certainly shed light on how you came to your position.  Of course that neither makes it sensible or logical.

As others have pointed out since, it matters not a jot what has been done with my NI contributions, the absolute fact is that I have now contributed sufficiently to the UK pension scheme for it to pay me a full pension.  Nothing that I do now (bar dying) will remove that entitlement.  Just as all those ex-pats that leave either before or after retirement age are entitled to their pension.

I think the main flaw in your argument is that you are confusing expenditure and liability.  That the UK government spend the contributions that are made is neither here nor there in regards to the liabilities that they are accepting by taking the payment.

Finally, it is a well trod path that there is no fund.  There is a fund albeit one that is massively underfunded. NIF Link

Edited by strichener
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Going to be fun to see Labour telling voters down south how devastating Tory polices are to the working class, how they only care about the rich..

While telling us up here how a Tory lead UK is actually better than independence 

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53 minutes ago, strichener said:

Thanks for your very detailed response.  It has certainly shed light on how you came to your position.  Of course that neither makes it sensible or logical.

As others have pointed out since, it matters not a jot what has been done with my NI contributions, the absolute fact is that I have now contributed sufficiently to the UK pension scheme for it to pay me a full pension.  Nothing that I do now (bar dying) will remove that entitlement.  Just as all those ex-pats that leave either before or after retirement age are entitled to their pension.

I think the main flaw in your argument is that you are confusing expenditure and liability.  That the UK government spend the contributions that are made is neither here nor there in regards to the liabilities that they are accepting by taking the payment.

Finally, it is a well trod path that there is no fund.  There is a fund albeit one that is massively underfunded. NIF Link

Disagree but let’s agree to disagree.

I did as you asked to the best of my ability, which I do recognise may be incorrect , but hey, time will tell.

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How can you disagree with fact?

Edit - It’s not for you to disagree with, if you’ve paid the minimum NI contributions, you’ll get your full UK state pension should you live in a non-UK country (Spain, Scotland, NZ). 

Edited by TheScarf
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8 minutes ago, git-intae-thum said:

He clearly wasn't expecting to actually be reminded of his "vow" in that interview.....but...but..but...."look at the smallprint."

Weasel words.

Do the London media still shamelessly peddle the line that, whilst those down south know Brown is a dirty b*****d, the thick, tribal Scots still think his farts smell like rose water and will thus believe his every lie?

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3 hours ago, strichener said:

Thanks for your very detailed response.  It has certainly shed light on how you came to your position.  Of course that neither makes it sensible or logical.

As others have pointed out since, it matters not a jot what has been done with my NI contributions, the absolute fact is that I have now contributed sufficiently to the UK pension scheme for it to pay me a full pension.  Nothing that I do now (bar dying) will remove that entitlement.  Just as all those ex-pats that leave either before or after retirement age are entitled to their pension.

I think the main flaw in your argument is that you are confusing expenditure and liability.  That the UK government spend the contributions that are made is neither here nor there in regards to the liabilities that they are accepting by taking the payment.

Finally, it is a well trod path that there is no fund.  There is a fund albeit one that is massively underfunded. NIF Link

A few points you may wish to add Strichener, in your response to DPB.

Your place of residence matters not a jot as regards Scots receiving their pension entitlement. e.g. Ex-pat Brits retiring to Spain etc.,

Also..the point made about Scots only receiving pension benefit from SCOTTISH contributions (and vice-versa with rUK claimants) is arrant nonsense.

The truth of the matter is ...looking ahead to post-Indy Scotland... I imagine there will be a degree of 'horse-trading' taking place. e.g.share in assets?...Buying time for Trident removal until suitable replacement base constructed (if at all)... these kind of things.

Incidentally... I thoroughly recommend folk view the YouTube vids of Steve Webb (Lib Dem pensions Sec of State in the coalition gov at time of Indy ref) in committee answering Iain Davidson (Slab.MP).

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On 03/09/2022 at 16:35, sophia said:

No I wasn't aware so I troubled myself with an online search, found the following words and decided not to click ...

"The people of Scotland are sovereign"

 

You don't believe the people of Scotland are sovereign then?  Are you truly for an Independent Scotland then.

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Can someone tell me when the SNP plan to start the Independence campaign 2023?  Why does there seem to be no excitement or movement compared to the 2014 campaign. 

Edit: Why did Blackford bend to Royalty?

Why did Sturgeon do the same? 

Why has the SNP become part of the British establishment?

 

Edited by Kenneth840
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6 hours ago, Kenneth840 said:

Can someone tell me when the SNP plan to start the Independence campaign 2023?  Why does there seem to be no excitement or movement compared to the 2014 campaign. 

Edit: Why did Blackford bend to Royalty?

Why did Sturgeon do the same? 

Why has the SNP become part of the British establishment?

 

Weird that you've turned up making the same arguments as Kincy.

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On 24/09/2022 at 15:59, Kenneth840 said:

Can someone tell me when the SNP plan to start the Independence campaign 2023?  Why does there seem to be no excitement or movement compared to the 2014 campaign. 

Edit: Why did Blackford bend to Royalty?

Why did Sturgeon do the same? 

Why has the SNP become part of the British establishment?

 

My guess is that they are waiting for the decision from the Supreme Court.

Politeness

Ditto

Not really, no Lords. That's a significant difference between the SNP, Scottish Greens and some other political parties.

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17 hours ago, Day of the Lords said:

Weird that you've turned up making the same arguments as Kincy.

I found it remarkable that he turned up hinting at being the exact kind of fantasy Nationalist that said poster used to chunter on about years ago, but that seemed in precious short supply in reality. When I was making digs about "what are the odds Kenny's next talking point is <x>," that's where I was getting them from.

Still waiting for him to launch into talk about armed resistance, but that would see him launched from the forum, I'd have thought.

Edit: it's quite funny that nobody's been engaging with his Friday/Saturday evening posts lately, so a new account (not you, Zern) has been replying to his important postulations on gender  :P

Edited by BFTD
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@Dawson Park Boy may be wrong, right or somewhere in between in his views on pensions but there isn't a single person anywhere who knows for a fact how pensions would be funded under an independent Scotland.

It is clearly an area requiring answers and not one which requires several pages of arrogant responses from Yes supporters who frankly can't possibly have a clue about how all this would work in reality given that even Sturgeon doesn't.

Arrogant Yes voters claiming to have the answers to every potential issue won't win over a single No voter to the cause. A lot of this is going to be a shot in the dark if we go for independence. Pretending otherwise is just daft.

FFS has Brexit taught us nothing about what levels of shit can hit the fan when two hostile parties divorce?

Edited by oaksoft
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