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When will indyref2 happen?


Colkitto

Indyref2  

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6 minutes ago, Caledonian1 said:

You missed out the small print at the end..........

Around 55% of taxpayers pay less income tax in Scotland than they would elsewhere in the UK. Even the Tory Scottish Secretary Alister Jack admitted it. The majority of Scottish taxpayers pay less tax than anyone else in the UK (while receiving free education, free prescriptions, free personal care and so much more).

And that’s the problem!!

Having lots of low earning, low tax paying, benefit receiving people is not going to pay the pensions of an ageing population.

We need high earners and lots of them.

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And that’s the problem!!
Having lots of low earning, low tax paying, benefit receiving people is not going to pay the pensions of an ageing population.
We need high earners and lots of them.
I'm sure that, eg, the duty/vat collected on alcohol/fuel sales, amongst other things, instead of going to HM treasury and going to a Scottish exchequer, will assist.
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1 hour ago, Dawson Park Boy said:

just read an interesting article by the Scots economist John McLaren where he points out that fiscal devolution (we pay higher taxes in Scotland) is bringing no benefit. All it is doing is papering over the cracks of lower growth and fewer higher tax payers in Scotland than in RUK.

In fact the SG will need to keep upping the tax take in Scotland merely to stand still as it is looking at a massive black hole down the tracks.

We would have been better off sticking to the Barrnett formula rather than going for tax devolution according to McLaren.

This also has ramifications to an independent Scotland being able to meet pension liabilities(here we go again) as it will need to pay liabilities built up under total UK rules out of an ageing population which has fewer higher paying taxpayers than RUK.

According to the writer the SG needs to go for growth which it can do under existing powers rather than focus on social policies.

To me this is dynamite but no doubt will be rubbished by SNP fan boys.

Well now that you are back and mentioning pensions maybe you could take the opportunity to answer the ones that you avoided last time - 

Quote

 

I currently have sufficient NI contributions to collect a full state pension in the UK.  I can stop working tomorrow and when I turn 67, get my full pension from the UK without contributing another bean to the treasury.  Why would the SG suddenly become liable for that if I happened to live in Scotland.  I see that you ignored the earlier scenarios in regards to who pays.

Q1. If I decide to move to England when I am 66 years and 364 days old having not paid a single pound in NI to the SG government, who pays my pension?
Q2. If I decide to move to England when I am 67 years and 1 day old having not paid a single pound in NI to the SG government, who pays my pension?
Q3. If I decide to move to England now having not paid a single pound in NI to the SG government, who pays my pension?


 

To make it easier, here are the possible answers

Q1 - Scottish Government / UK government

Q2 - Scottish Government / UK government

Q3 - Scottish Government / UK government

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1 hour ago, Dawson Park Boy said:

And that’s the problem!!

Having lots of low earning, low tax paying, benefit receiving people is not going to pay the pensions of an ageing population.

We need high earners and lots of them.

Or alternatively we need everyone to be a middle-earner, no?  With a tax system that seeks to promote equality and is prohibited to be used on vanity projects and projection

Edited by strichener
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1 hour ago, Dawson Park Boy said:

Having lots of low earning, low tax paying, benefit receiving people is not going to pay the pensions of an ageing population.

We need high earners and lots of them.

And all those high earners that seek out ways to minimise their tax payments will help the situation how?

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1 hour ago, strichener said:

Well now that you are back and mentioning pensions maybe you could take the opportunity to answer the ones that you avoided last time - 

To make it easier, here are the possible answers

Q1 - Scottish Government / UK government

Q2 - Scottish Government / UK government

Q3 - Scottish Government / UK government

Okay, let’s give this pension thing a go once again.

First of all, I have never worked in the pensions industry or have any special knowledge other than what any normal person can pick up from news reports or the media. So that’s my starting point. Maybe LB might join in as he did appear to have some insight into the topic.

1. When you contribute to NI , your contributions go immediately to paying pensions to those currently retired. In other words, there is NO pot as you have in company pension schemes or indeed in some public sector schemes such as teachers, police, health service, etc. That is the crucial point.

2. Over time you do however build up, through your contributions, an obligation for the state (UK at present) to pay you out when you reach pension age. Over the years there have been things like Graduated Pensions, SERPS etc, which, depending on how much you contribute give you an amount higher than the basic OAP.

3. The amount you get and any annual increase is a political matter and is determined by the government of the day e.g. the triple lock, inflation, etc. and has nothing to do with how much you may have contributed.

4. If Scotland were to vote for independence, your NI contributions and subsequent pension would be determined by your residence on the date of independence. No doubt there will be anomalies but let’s put those aside for now.

5. At that point RUK pensioners will be paid out from RUK contributors and Scottish pensioners from Scottish contributors. Exactly the same for both jurisdictions.

6. The liabilities built up within the UK system by Scottish pensioners will be taken on by the SG at independence date and it will be up to them as to how they deal with their state pension liabilities based on contributions thereafter. Just remember that the SG will be receiving all tax and national insurance receipts from independence date into the future.

7.The political worry for voters is as to whether the SG has the means to honour those liabilities bearing in mind that it’s taxpayer base is older and has fewer high earners than RUK(think London and the South East)

8.Refer to the report just out by the economist John McLaren regarding the Scottish taxpayer base relating to current tax devolution which means SG has to tax higher to produce the same revenue and is heading towards a large black hole. These matters may be of no concern to voters but will obviously come out in the lead up to any referendum

Ive  tried to lay out my thoughts on the basic principles involved and maybe others in the industry could add their wisdom.

We can come back to your specific queries in due course but I’ve done my best to expound how I I think it would work.

 

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Okay, let’s give this pension thing a go once again.
First of all, I have never worked in the pensions industry or have any special knowledge other than what any normal person can pick up from news reports or the media. So that’s my starting point. Maybe LB might join in as he did appear to have some insight into the topic.
1. When you contribute to NI , your contributions go immediately to paying pensions to those currently retired. In other words, there is NO pot as you have in company pension schemes or indeed in some public sector schemes such as teachers, police, health service, etc. That is the crucial point.
2. Over time you do however build up, through your contributions, an obligation for the state (UK at present) to pay you out when you reach pension age. Over the years there have been things like Graduated Pensions, SERPS etc, which, depending on how much you contribute give you an amount higher than the basic OAP.
3. The amount you get and any annual increase is a political matter and is determined by the government of the day e.g. the triple lock, inflation, etc. and has nothing to do with how much you may have contributed.
4. If Scotland were to vote for independence, your NI contributions and subsequent pension would be determined by your residence on the date of independence. No doubt there will be anomalies but let’s put those aside for now.
5. At that point RUK pensioners will be paid out from RUK contributors and Scottish pensioners from Scottish contributors. Exactly the same for both jurisdictions.
6. The liabilities built up within the UK system by Scottish pensioners will be taken on by the SG at independence date and it will be up to them as to how they deal with their state pension liabilities based on contributions thereafter. Just remember that the SG will be receiving all tax and national insurance receipts from independence date into the future.
7.The political worry for voters is as to whether the SG has the means to honour those liabilities bearing in mind that it’s taxpayer base is older and has fewer high earners than RUK(think London and the South East)
8.Refer to the report just out by the economist John McLaren regarding the Scottish taxpayer base relating to current tax devolution which means SG has to tax higher to produce the same revenue and is heading towards a large black hole. These matters may be of no concern to voters but will obviously come out in the lead up to any referendum
Ive  tried to lay out my thoughts on the basic principles involved and maybe others in the industry could add their wisdom.
We can come back to your specific queries in due course but I’ve done my best to expound how I I think it would work.
 


You should have stopped after "First of all, I have never worked in the pensions industry".

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3 minutes ago, DeeTillEhDeh said:

4. If Scotland were to vote for independence, your NI contributions and subsequent pension would be determined by your residence on the date of independence. No doubt there will be anomalies but let’s put those aside for now.
5. At that point RUK pensioners will be paid out from RUK contributors and Scottish pensioners from Scottish contributors. Exactly the same for both jurisdictions.
6. The liabilities built up within the UK system by Scottish pensioners will be taken on by the SG at independence date and it will be up to them as to how they deal with their state pension liabilities based on contributions thereafter. Just remember that the SG will be receiving all tax and national insurance receipts from independence date into the future.

So you're claiming that Scots who have paid NI and possible SERPS top ups for their entire lives to the Westminster Government can be told, sorry we don't owe you anything, ask Holyrood? You only mention liabilities, what about assets? 8.2% would be fair, of everything Scottish taxpayers have contributed to, in dollars or Euros please, none of these dodgy pay on the never never gilts. 

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4 minutes ago, welshbairn said:

So you're claiming that Scots who have paid NI and possible SERPS top ups for their entire lives to the Westminster Government can be told, sorry we don't owe you anything, ask Holyrood? You only mention liabilities, what about assets? 8.2% would be fair, of everything Scottish taxpayers have contributed to, in dollars or Euros please, none of these dodgy pay on the never

Yes, your accumulated entitlement would be paid by SG from Independence Day onwards.
Remember, they are getting the tax income from all Scottish taxpayers from Independence Day onwards.

Thats my take. Maybe someone more knowledgeable could step in here.

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5 minutes ago, Dawson Park Boy said:

Yes, your accumulated entitlement would be paid by SG from Independence Day onwards.
Remember, they are getting the tax income from all Scottish taxpayers from Independence Day onwards.

Thats my take. Maybe someone more knowledgeable could step in here.

State Pension is a contributions-based Social Security benefit. Therefore if someone has paid all their NI contributions to the treasury before Independence Day, they should be be paid their Pension by the UK government, because they will have met the conditionality for that benefit. The complexities will probably occur for those who are still of working age and will have split contributions firstly to the UKG, then post Indy to the ScotGov. Even allowing for how shit DWPs systems are, that should hardly prove insurmountable. 

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6 minutes ago, Dawson Park Boy said:

Yes, your accumulated entitlement would be paid by SG from Independence Day onwards.
Remember, they are getting the tax income from all Scottish taxpayers from Independence Day onwards.

Thats my take. Maybe someone more knowledgeable could step in here.

Hang on a minute, would we lose all the accumulated liabilities of the UK as well as our share of the assets? That might not be such a bad deal.

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3 minutes ago, Day of the Lords said:

State Pension is a contributions-based Social Security benefit. Therefore if someone has paid all their NI contributions to the treasury before Independence Day, they should be be paid their Pension by the UK government, because they will have met the conditionality for that benefit. The complexities will probably occur for those who are still of working age and will have split contributions firstly to the UKG, then post Indy to the ScotGov. Even allowing for how shit DWPs systems are, that should hardly prove insurmountable. 

My sister who became a New Zealand citizen has just retired and she has the choice of taking up the UK pension or the New Zealand one, but not both sadly. 

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30 minutes ago, Day of the Lords said:

State Pension is a contributions-based Social Security benefit. Therefore if someone has paid all their NI contributions to the treasury before Independence Day, they should be be paid their Pension by the UK government, because they will have met the conditionality for that benefit. The complexities will probably occur for those who are still of working age and will have split contributions firstly to the UKG, then post Indy to the ScotGov. Even allowing for how shit DWPs systems are, that should hardly prove insurmountable. 

Disagree.

Will be paid by SG.

I think this is where the debate ended last time.

LB- where are you?

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29 minutes ago, welshbairn said:

Hang on a minute, would we lose all the accumulated liabilities of the UK as well as our share of the assets? That might not be such a bad deal.

State assets and liabilities is a different topic.

Remember, the money you’ve been paying in has gone out as public expenditure over the whole UK just as someone in Bradford has been doing the same.

After independence each country looks after its own citizens,

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16 minutes ago, Dawson Park Boy said:

State assets and liabilities is a different topic.

Remember, the money you’ve been paying in has gone out as public expenditure over the whole UK just as someone in Bradford has been doing the same.

After independence each country looks after its own citizens,

So how come my sister is getting a UK pension in New Zealand, who are most definitely independent?

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I see we’re still on the ‘we’d get no penshun!!!!’ shite.

How do people who moved from the UK to Spain (Independent from the UK I believe?) get their pension? Who pays it? I have a hunch it might be the UK government?

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