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When will indyref2 happen?


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Indyref2  

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2 hours ago, Derry Pele said:

I’m sure that this has been asked and answered at some point in the last 1,611 pages, but would a Scottish exit from the UK need a massive divorce bill equal to the UK’s debt pro rata?

At this point I think it’s the only reservation I have, and with the debt figure about to get even bigger with Truss using our pockets to fund energy firms, rather than said firms’ profits, it would be a sore wan

No. The UK wishes to assume the status of successor state. Legally they then hold liabilities.

That being said there is a trade to be made here between asset and liability.

Hence for a negotiable share of the debt we take some of the goodies.

For example ......no nonsense....we will be keeping the pound...anybody who says we can't is talking shit. The BOE will be straight on the phone after a yes vote. We will be entitled to a share of the futures UK NI contribution, compensation for UK national infrastructure at home and abroad that we have already paid into, a share of UK defence etc etc etc.

We have quite a good hand tbh.

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6 hours ago, git-intae-thum said:

No. The UK wishes to assume the status of successor state. Legally they then hold liabilities.

That being said there is a trade to be made here between asset and liability.

Hence for a negotiable share of the debt we take some of the goodies.

For example ......no nonsense....we will be keeping the pound...anybody who says we can't is talking shit. The BOE will be straight on the phone after a yes vote. We will be entitled to a share of the futures UK NI contribution, compensation for UK national infrastructure at home and abroad that we have already paid into, a share of UK defence etc etc etc.

We have quite a good hand tbh.

Why would an independent Scotland be entitled to a share in future tax revenue in a country we’re no longer part of?

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3 minutes ago, Left Back said:

NI contribution is just a tax revenue and spent by the government in the same way any other tax revenue is spent.

The payment of NI qualifies you for the future payment of, amongst other things, a state pension. The pension is directly related to how many years you have paid NI. So whilst there may not be 2 pots of money for tax and NI, the NI is in effect a payment to be given back in the future once you reach a certain age.

 

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4 minutes ago, Soapy FFC said:

The payment of NI qualifies you for the future payment of, amongst other things, a state pension. The pension is directly related to how many years you have paid NI. So whilst there may not be 2 pots of money for tax and NI, the NI is in effect a payment to be given back in the future once you reach a certain age.

 

Yes it qualifies you.  the money you pay while you're working isn't held or ring-fenced for you.  It's spent on todays current pensions.

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9 minutes ago, Soapy FFC said:

The payment of NI qualifies you for the future payment of, amongst other things, a state pension. The pension is directly related to how many years you have paid NI. So whilst there may not be 2 pots of money for tax and NI, the NI is in effect a payment to be given back in the future once you reach a certain age.

 

Pensions paid out by SG post independence will be paid from SG post independence tax revenues.

The amount you are entitled to depends on your contributions pre and post independence.

There is NO fund.

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3 minutes ago, williemillersmoustache said:

Better question. Why should an independent Scotland be concerned with how rUK funds its liabilities? 

To be clear here.

Lets assume I turn 67 and become entitled to my state pension on the day Scotland becomes independent.  Are people really saying they'd expect the UK to fund my state pension and not an independent Scotland?

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26 minutes ago, Left Back said:

To be clear here.

Lets assume I turn 67 and become entitled to my state pension on the day Scotland becomes independent.  Are people really saying they'd expect the UK to fund my state pension and not an independent Scotland?

Scotland will pay your state pension but it is up to the SG, as part of the divorce settlement, to get X amount of millions of our pension contributions from the UK goverment.

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45 minutes ago, Left Back said:

To be clear here.

Lets assume I turn 67 and become entitled to my state pension on the day Scotland becomes independent.  Are people really saying they'd expect the UK to fund my state pension and not an independent Scotland?

Please tell me you're joking with this?  

Going by your logic, Brits who live in an independent Spain don't get their state pension from the UK govt?

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10 minutes ago, TheScarf said:

Please tell me you're joking with this?  

Going by your logic, Brits who live in an independent Spain don't get their state pension from the UK govt?

No I'm not joking and a UK citizen who retires abroad and is still entitled to their UK state pension is an entirely different scenario.

29 minutes ago, steelmen said:

Scotland will pay your state pension but it is up to the SG, as part of the divorce settlement, to get X amount of millions of our pension contributions from the UK goverment.

There are no pension contributions.  Those have been spent on current state pensions.  They aren't invested or held in a fund (well actually a tiny amount is held in a buffer account to smooth out any discrepanices between that months income and expenditure.  Around 2 months worth of payments or something along those lines).

What you guys are basically saying is that an independent Scotland will only assume pension liabilities from the moment of independence so all the years of entitlement built up while part of the UK will continue to be paid by the UK.  Do you realise how ludicrous that sounds?

State pensions would likely be one of the least contentious parts of the negotiations but it absolutely will not happen that the UK taxpayer will be funding Scottish state pensions for decades until everyone that is pensionable age in Scotland has only ever accrued entitlements (or whatever system Scotland would use) under an independent Scotland.

What will happen is the SG will assume liability for the entitlements (and existing pensions) of Scots that were built up as part of the UK and the SG would fund those pensions out of SG tax revenue post independence.

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6 minutes ago, Left Back said:

No I'm not joking and a UK citizen who retires abroad and is still entitled to their UK state pension is an entirely different scenario.

There are no pension contributions.  Those have been spent on current state pensions.  They aren't invested or held in a fund (well actually a tiny amount is held in a buffer account to smooth out any discrepanices between that months income and expenditure.  Around 2 months worth of payments or something along those lines).

What you guys are basically saying is that an independent Scotland will only assume pension liabilities from the moment of independence so all the years of entitlement built up while part of the UK will continue to be paid by the UK.  Do you realise how ludicrous that sounds?

State pensions would likely be one of the least contentious parts of the negotiations but it absolutely will not happen that the UK taxpayer will be funding Scottish state pensions for decades until everyone that is pensionable age in Scotland has only ever accrued entitlements (or whatever system Scotland would use) under an independent Scotland.

What will happen is the SG will assume liability for the entitlements (and existing pensions) of Scots that were built up as part of the UK and the SG would fund those pensions out of SG tax revenue post independence.

Who says people willing be losing their UK Citizenship after independence?

The Irish didn’t after all. 

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1 minute ago, Clown Job said:

Who says people willing be losing their UK Citizenship after independence?

The Irish didn’t after all. 

This is getting surreal.

Whether we'd be entitled to dual citizenship or not rUK would not be funding state pensions for Scottish pensioners post independence.

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2 minutes ago, Left Back said:

This is getting surreal.

Whether we'd be entitled to dual citizenship or not rUK would not be funding state pensions for Scottish pensioners post independence.

You’re right it is getting a bit unreal 

A UK citizen living in Spain is entitled to the pension 

A UK citizen living in Scotland wouldn’t be entitled to the pension

Doesn't really make sense 

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11 minutes ago, Left Back said:

No I'm not joking and a UK citizen who retires abroad and is still entitled to their UK state pension is an entirely different scenario.

There are no pension contributions.  Those have been spent on current state pensions.  They aren't invested or held in a fund (well actually a tiny amount is held in a buffer account to smooth out any discrepanices between that months income and expenditure.  Around 2 months worth of payments or something along those lines).

What you guys are basically saying is that an independent Scotland will only assume pension liabilities from the moment of independence so all the years of entitlement built up while part of the UK will continue to be paid by the UK.  Do you realise how ludicrous that sounds?

State pensions would likely be one of the least contentious parts of the negotiations but it absolutely will not happen that the UK taxpayer will be funding Scottish state pensions for decades until everyone that is pensionable age in Scotland has only ever accrued entitlements (or whatever system Scotland would use) under an independent Scotland.

What will happen is the SG will assume liability for the entitlements (and existing pensions) of Scots that were built up as part of the UK and the SG would fund those pensions out of SG tax revenue post independence.

This article from FOA sums it up quite well:

https://fraserofallander.org/who-pays-the-state-pension-in-an-independent-scotland/

The reality is that there will be a trade.

UK gov will continue pension liability in exchange for reciprocal arrangements. As happens with the EU, Australia etc at the moment.

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1 minute ago, Clown Job said:

You’re right it is getting a bit unreal 

A UK citizen living in Spain is entitled to the pension 

A UK citizen living in Scotland wouldn’t be entitled to the pension

Doesn't really make sense 

So you really think the Scottish government will assume no liabilities for state pensions and rUK would be effectively subsidising an independent Scotland on this?

That really is never going to happen.

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4 minutes ago, git-intae-thum said:

This article from FOA sums it up quite well:

https://fraserofallander.org/who-pays-the-state-pension-in-an-independent-scotland/

The reality is that there will be a trade.

UK gov will continue pension liability in exchange for reciprocal arrangements. As happens with the EU, Australia etc at the moment.

You seemingly failed to see this part which deals with funding so no the UK government wouldn't just blanket continue liability.

"It would expect the Scottish government to make a reasonable contribution to the costs of the State Pension in Scotland"

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6 minutes ago, Left Back said:

So you really think the Scottish government will assume no liabilities for state pensions and rUK would be effectively subsidising an independent Scotland on this?

That really is never going to happen.

See link above.

It will not be subsidizing anything, because it will be part of a larger negotiated settlement over asset and liability .

However the likely reality is rUK will be paying a good proportion of our pensions for a long time.

Any other scenario is ludicrous and unworkable.

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10 minutes ago, Left Back said:

You seemingly failed to see this part which deals with funding so no the UK government wouldn't just blanket continue liability.

"It would expect the Scottish government to make a reasonable contribution to the costs of the State Pension in Scotland"

.... this then suggests that rUK will in fact assume liability for our pensions but expect Scotland to contribute an amount subject to negotiation.

 

 

Edited by git-intae-thum
Typo
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