When will indyref2 happen?

[Antlion]

2 hours ago, Dawson Park Boy said:

Maybe you should have a read of John Mclaren’s article in the Scotsman regarding the SNP economic plans?

Didn’t you just ignore all the articles regarding the Brexiteers’ economic plans?

[TheScarf]

12 minutes ago, Inanimate Carbon Rod said:

Why are you scared of tax rises? If we follow a Scandinavian model that’s what will happen, but services will improve and wages will also rise. Our household is in the highest tax bracket and tbh Im happy to pay a bit more tax to have first class services and ensure people are paid better.
On AUFC’s point about foreign owned energy investment, the nice thing about tidal power is that you’re not competing for an oil or gas field, theres plenty of tide for everyone. We have vast areas for wind power too, the potential is massive, we’ll be exporting the stuff down south at a premium. 

That's the kicker for WM.  They know Scotland will charge them through the nose for exporting our resources.  I'm 99% certain it's Scotland who has to pay WM at the moment to export it.

[SweeperDee]

Why are you scared of tax rises? If we follow a Scandinavian model that’s what will happen, but services will improve and wages will also rise. Our household is in the highest tax bracket and tbh Im happy to pay a bit more tax to have first class services and ensure people are paid better.
On AUFC’s point about foreign owned energy investment, the nice thing about tidal power is that you’re not competing for an oil or gas field, theres plenty of tide for everyone. We have vast areas for wind power too, the potential is massive, we’ll be exporting the stuff down south at a premium. 

Because he is greedy, Tory vermin.

[picklish]

Although I think we should be independent, that we would undoubtedly be better off politically, and potentially better of economically, it seems that no one has any sort of plan how to get there.

The leveling of accusations that the SNP are anti-independence is ridiculous, but the reason that they are made is because there's no roadmap of how to become independent. Westminster simply says no, and can and will continue saying no, whoever's in charge.

Even if the court decides that MSPs have the power to pass an independence referendum bill, it will be considered advisory and Westminster will simply say "thanks for your input, but now is not the time." Or come out with some stuff about turnout, or supermajority, or legislative competence, or whatever it pleases.

What's more likely is that the SG will be barred from holding one, or the court decides it's not the time for it to decide.

There's simply no way out of the bind without much more radical action. But a wildcat referendum probably wouldn't get international support. UDI isn't suitable when the polls are so split. So I've no idea what kind of radical action they could take.

 

 

I'm planning to start a party that's against independence because we'd end up with a failed state on our southern border

[ICTJohnboy]

44 minutes ago, Inanimate Carbon Rod said:

But honestly, f**k me, please, someone gonnae explain with whats happened in the UK over the last 6 years and especially recently, please honestly tell me how we’re ‘better together’? Every single thing they told the no voters that would happen or wouldnt happen, has fucking happened. Fuuuuuuuuuuuuuck the tories. 

 

Last 6 years?

Surely the last 6 months of Westminster chaos must have convinced any remaining doubters (apart from DPB) that Independence just has to happen - and soon. 

[Inanimate Carbon Rod]

4 minutes ago, ICTJohnboy said:

 

Last 6 years?

Surely the last 6 months of Westminster chaos must have convinced any remaining doubters (apart from DPB) that Independence just has to happen - and soon. 

My thoughts are that despite the failings of the Smith Commission we have to look at the imposition of Brexit on Scotland as the start of a new political generation, my own thoughts, but i think its reasonable, so im measuring on it from that time scale, 6 years, easy to summarise and show how all the things we were warned would happen or wouldnt happen have essentially happened by staying part of this fucking shit show. 

[Aufc]

2 hours ago, TheScarf said:

They literally said it was a high level overview, theres nothing blinkered about me or any pro-Indy people’s views on here. This isn’t a White Paper like in 2014. On what planet would an independent Scotland be worse off financially and economically than it is being tied to Westminster? 
 

Just say you’re worried about you’re pension and move on with your life.

This is my point. I dont know whether we will because the SNP havent detailed anything. Not really bothered about a measly state pension. By the time, i get to that age i doubt there will even be one. 

1 hour ago, TheScarf said:

Scotland will be financially and economically better off as an independent nation.  Every penny made in Scotland from its rich resources can be spent in Scotland and not sent down to the treasury.  That's before you talk about borrowing powers. If you think otherwise then you're deluded.  

Except that most of its resources are owned by foreign companies? How much do they need to borrow? You cant just keep borrowing without trying to sort out the other side. 

1 hour ago, Inanimate Carbon Rod said:

Why are you scared of tax rises? If we follow a Scandinavian model that’s what will happen, but services will improve and wages will also rise. Our household is in the highest tax bracket and tbh Im happy to pay a bit more tax to have first class services and ensure people are paid better.
On AUFC’s point about foreign owned energy investment, the nice thing about tidal power is that you’re not competing for an oil or gas field, theres plenty of tide for everyone. We have vast areas for wind power too, the potential is massive, we’ll be exporting the stuff down south at a premium. 

I am in total agreement with you regarding tax rises. However, there is a limit to this as we not blessed with lots of higher rate tax payers. There were 387,000 higher rate tax payers and 18,000 top rate tax payers in 21-22.  If the 18,000 pay an extra £5k a year in tax then its only 90m. Not really touching the sides with that and thats before you even consider the fact they are being asked to pay such a large extra amount. 

57 minutes ago, Inanimate Carbon Rod said:

But honestly, f**k me, please, someone gonnae explain with whats happened in the UK over the last 6 years and especially recently, please honestly tell me how we’re ‘better together’? Every single thing they told the no voters that would happen or wouldnt happen, has fucking happened. Fuuuuuuuuuuuuuck the tories. 

I agree. However, then consider that in 2 years the tories will almost certainly be voted out. 

 

I do feel like im arguing for no here but just playing devils advocate

[Aufc]

58 minutes ago, SweeperDee said:

Because he is greedy, Tory vermin.

Such a dim-witted view

[Dawson Park Boy]

4 minutes ago, Aufc said:

This is my point. I dont know whether we will because the SNP havent detailed anything. Not really bothered about a measly state pension. By the time, i get to that age i doubt there will even be one. 

Except that most of its resources are owned by foreign companies? How much do they need to borrow? You cant just keep borrowing without trying to sort out the other side. 

I am in total agreement with you regarding tax rises. However, there is a limit to this as we not blessed with lots of higher rate tax payers. There were 387,000 higher rate tax payers and 18,000 top rate tax payers in 21-22.  If the 18,000 pay an extra £5k a year in tax then its only 90m. Not really touching the sides with that and thats before you even consider the fact they are being asked to pay such a large extra amount. 

I agree. However, then consider that in 2 years the tories will almost certainly be voted out. 

 

I do feel like im arguing for no here but just playing devils advocate

Your point about the number of higher rate tax payers is spot on.

It also affects the ability to pay the lowly, I agree, state pension which will be the responsibility of the SG as the document admits. The only plus is that Scots die younger than the UK as a whole which helps the costs.

Regarding green energy, the vast bulk of ownership is foreign with the bulk of the manufacturing taking place overseas.

Decades ago, the SNP promised 100000 green jobs. Never happened.

They always say that we will grow our way to prosperity. How?

Liz Truss tried that tack and look what happened?

[SweeperDee]

Such a dim-witted view

f**k right off. This government is literally, not figuratively, killing people with this utter shit show. Scum.

Call me dim-witted all you want, but any Tory that gets any sort of abuse on the back of this utterly deserves it.

[strichener]

1 hour ago, TheScarf said:

Scotland will be financially and economically better off as an independent nation.  

Bold claim.  Prove it.

[Aufc]

7 minutes ago, SweeperDee said:

f**k right off. This government is literally, not figuratively, killing people with this utter shit show. Scum.

Call me dim-witted all you want, but any Tory that gets any sort of abuse on the back of this utterly deserves it.

I wasnt questioning you saying calling tories greedy. I was questioning you jumping down the throat of someone who was (on the face of it) just questioning whether all the issues which we will face are worth it

[TheScarf]

3 minutes ago, strichener said:

Bold claim.  Prove it.

[SweeperDee]

I wasnt questioning you saying calling tories greedy. I was questioning you jumping down the throat of someone who was (on the face of it) just questioning whether all the issues which we will face are worth it

Anyone “scared of tax rises” like Dawson p***k here are only scared for one reason, and it was the one I originally stated. They are greedy vermin.

[Dawson Park Boy]

15 minutes ago, SweeperDee said:

f**k right off. This government is literally, not figuratively, killing people with this utter shit show. Scum.

Call me dim-witted all you want, but any Tory that gets any sort of abuse on the back of this utterly deserves it.

I think you should calm down a bit.

Cant imagine this anger is doing you any good.

I can assure you that, as a long standing right wing unionist that I’m not too happy about the current mess either.

Truss was democratically elected by the Conservative party members (btw- I’m not a member) and tried, albeit unsuccessfully to enact the policies which she stood on. She failed, she resigned. What else can she do?

Its obvious that there are deep divisions within the Conservatives and they may split. Who knows? It would probably be for the better just as the more radical separatists formed the Alba party (maybe, you’re one?)

Anyway, relax a bit as there are interesting times ahead.

Just a wee tip. Throwing abuse at people is not a great vote winner.

[SweeperDee]

I wasnt questioning you saying calling tories greedy. I was questioning you jumping down the throat of someone who was (on the face of it) just questioning whether all the issues which we will face are worth it

Anyone “scared of tax rises” like Dawson p***k here are only scared for one reason, and it was the one I originally stated. They are greedy vermin.

[Dawson Park Boy]

5 minutes ago, SweeperDee said:

Anyone “scared of tax rises” like Dawson p***k here are only scared for one reason, and it was the one I originally stated. They are greedy vermin.

Okay then. What do you reckon is a reasonable top rate of tax such as to bring in the ‘dosh’ but not kill the golden goose?

What say you- 45%, 50%, how about 60%, 70%, even better?

[Aufc]

4 minutes ago, SweeperDee said:

Anyone “scared of tax rises” like Dawson p***k here are only scared for one reason, and it was the one I originally stated. They are greedy vermin.

Well not really. It depends on their financial circumstances. I would be happy to pay a bit more tax if it meant better services etc, however, there a limit to this. 

As i have pointed out, there is also a limit on higher rate and tax payers within the country and we already suffer from a productivity issue. So we clearly need to attract more people to the country (especially higher rate ones). However, we will be charging them more tax than rest of the UK so this may put people off (yes potential better qualify of life which will mean some wont care but it will also mean some people will choose elsewhere). I dont think the level of tax increases needed to maintain the services can be done with the number of tax payers in the country. So you then need to borrow. However, we wont have any credit history so therefore are we going to be able to borrow enough? Cant imagine we will get the best rates due to this. This is all stuff that needs to be considered

[Salt n Vinegar]

6 hours ago, BigDoddyKane said:

Thats a fair point

It's even worse. Most of the folk experienced in running elections and referenda, who spend months booking premises, ordering ballot papers, ballot boxes and the necessary transport and security, pencils, string, booths, drawing pins, signs, staff for the count, allocating political party and press accreditation etc ad nauseam work for local authorities. 

Without legal authority to run an election or referendum, I doubt the Chief Executives would have the power to spend any money of allocate staff resources. Every "no-body" in the street would kick up Hell and the unionist parties would tie up the councils in legal disputes from day 1.

Which, as I and others have said, leaves us with the question - are we hostages or are we "allowed" to decide our own future, based on a democratic mandate, at a time of our choosing? 

[BigDoddyKane]

1 minute ago, Salt n Vinegar said:

It's even worse. Most of the folk experienced in running elections and referenda, who spend months booking premises, ordering ballot papers, ballot boxes and the necessary transport and security, pencils, string, booths, drawing pins, signs, staff for the count, allocating political party and press accreditation etc ad nauseam work for local authorities. 

Without legal authority to run an election or referendum, I doubt the Chief Executives would have the power to spend any money of allocate staff resources. Every "no-body" in the street would kick up Hell and the unionist parties would tie up the councils in legal disputes from day 1.

Which, as I and others have said, leaves us with the question - are we hostages or are we "allowed" to decide our own future, based on a democratic mandate, at a time of our choosing? 

if supreme court says no is the only option SNP getting 50% or over in a GE? Surely theres other options and plays that can be made

Edited October 20, 2022 by BigDoddyKane