When will indyref2 happen?

[BigDoddyKane]

15 minutes ago, Salt n Vinegar said:

As far as I know, the only gap between referenda that the Government has ever legislated for is 7 years. If anyone except the voters in the area MUST be given a say on the time interval, wouldn’t it be reasonable to match that? I'm not agreeing the notion of others apart from the Scottish electorate deciding when the time is "right", but if I did, I couldn't accept a longer period than was felt appropriate in NI. The key point I'd keep in mind is that it shouldn't be up to anyone but voters in Scotland to determine their political future, at any time of their choice. 

BTW, it's already 7 years, 9 months and 11 days since the previous indyref. Too soon? Must be another case of "except for viewers in Norther Ireland". 

agree and that could be included in any written agreement, something could be done to take away this boring talk that happens before an indyref evens begins, if anything all the shite beforehand helps the unionist side and people tire of the debate before its even began

everything becomes old news if its discussed for too long and nothing changes

Edited June 29, 2022 by BigDoddyKane

[Billy Jean King]

They can take the democratic route of getting a section 30 granted like they did in 2014.... 

What is the "democratic route" to a S30 order when the only authority that can grant it is point blank refusing no matter what ? It appears there is no "democratic route". Indy could be polling at 75% and the UKG would still toe the current line. They (UKG) have failed to even outline under what set of conditions they would grant a S30, that's the crux of this issue.

[10menwent2mow]

12 hours ago, The_Kincardine said:

People are very aware that the issue at hand is that Britain should not be partitioned on the say so of 8% of its population.

Fine. We'll let the English and the Welsh vote too. Probably be a landslide for Yes if we did. 

[Dons_1988]

10 minutes ago, Albus Bulbasaur said:

They're not indefinitely refusing one though, they've granted one less than a decade ago and they've repeatedly pointed to reasons why they don't feel one needs to be granted at this time whilst acknowledging one may be granted in the future. 

The SC ruling shall certainly be interesting. I'm sure they'll adequately explain the legality behind their decision. 

Out of curiosity what do you think is the appropriate mechanism for Wales to gain independence? 

Have they acknowledged granting one in the future? You’re being slightly generous there as they could easily be ambiguous indefinitely as to what would trigger it. I’m very sceptical that they’ve made this acknowledgment in good faith. 

The point is that unless the SC rules otherwise then it’s entirely in their gift to grant one based on no definitive trigger points. So theoretically the SNP could win 99% of a 100% voter turnout and they still wouldn’t be obliged to do anything. 

Im not really sure what you’re getting at with wales but it may well be beneficial to have clearer guidelines about what would trigger a devolved government to have the power to hold a referendum. 

[Antlion]

6 minutes ago, Left Back said:

Seeing as such store is being set in this phrase I went looking yesterday.  You don't have to look very hard to find multiple instances of "once in a generation" or "once in a lifetime" being bandied about by both Salmond and Sturgeon.

4:40 in and Sturgeon uses both phrases.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-politics-24147303

You can argue all you want about how long a generation or lifetime is but the "off the cuff" remark seems to have been thrown out an awful lot.  Any savvy politician should realise that anything they say will be used against them so to keep repeating it played into the Tories hands.

The tories (and probably labour as well) are of course twisting it for their own ends but that's what politicians do.

To be fair, our vote on whether we wanted to be part of or gain independence from an EU member state was as it turns out once in a lifetime and certainly once in a generation. Sturgeon should point this out every time the line is thrown at her.

[Albus Bulbasaur]

2 minutes ago, Dons_1988 said:

Have they acknowledged granting one in the future? You’re being slightly generous there as they could easily be ambiguous indefinitely as to what would trigger it. I’m very sceptical that they’ve made this acknowledgment in good faith. 

The point is that unless the SC rules otherwise then it’s entirely in their gift to grant one based on no definitive trigger points. So theoretically the SNP could win 99% of a 100% voter turnout and they still wouldn’t be obliged to do anything. 

Im not really sure what you’re getting at with wales but it may well be beneficial to have clearer guidelines about what would trigger a devolved government to have the power to hold a referendum. 

SC might show that devolved governments don't have the power to do so which is what has been argued to death since the start of devolution. 

I've said this at every turn where people believe voting SNP is somehow going to give them powers above their station. 

I'd agree it would be best for all countries in the UK to have clear framework for what would need to happen for Independence so without that i can understand such grievances. Unfortunately for you I believe this is a minority grievance and if it was genuinely at least half the country bothered by it then I'd imagine you'd see movement on the issue. 

[SuperSaints1877]

44 minutes ago, oaksoft said:

If you don't have an answer that's fair enough but the original question still stands. What is the democratic route for the SNP when the Tories are simply refusing to allow a Section 30 order after the SNP have won a clear democratic mandate to obtain one?

I say we take Faslane by force and point the missiles we don’t want at London.

I’m sure they will allow a Section 30 after that.

[Dawson Park Boy]

40 minutes ago, welshbairn said:

Control our own monetary policy and re-establish single market trading relations with the EU. 

That opens up more questions than answers.

What difference will controlling monetary policy make and to what effect?

Regarding single market trading with the EU presumably you mean EFTA membership. How would that effect trading with our main partner, RUK?

Edited June 29, 2022 by Dawson Park Boy
Spelling

[Dawson Park Boy]

23 minutes ago, Antlion said:

I thought you abhorred “specifics” and preferred vague promises printed on the side of buses? You thinking you can demand “specifics” after openly admitting you voted for a blank cheque is a bit like Jeffrey Dahmer campaigning for better prison food.

Actually, I read the other day that since 2016, GDP in the UK has increased more than in the EU.

i know statistics can be made to say anything but I found that surprising.

Brexit has certainly not been a disaster as far as I am concerned and, in time, I think it will be positive.

[Dons_1988]

9 minutes ago, Albus Bulbasaur said:

SC might show that devolved governments don't have the power to do so which is what has been argued to death since the start of devolution. 

I've said this at every turn where people believe voting SNP is somehow going to give them powers above their station. 

I'd agree it would be best for all countries in the UK to have clear framework for what would need to happen for Independence so without that i can understand such grievances. Unfortunately for you I believe this is a minority grievance and if it was genuinely at least half the country bothered by it then I'd imagine you'd see movement on the issue. 

So therein lies the original question, what is the democratic (i.e. the people of Scotland) route to independence if voting SNP on a clear mandate for a referendum doesn’t give them ‘powers above their station’ and a Westminster government has no inclination to allow a vote? 

[Scary Bear]

38 minutes ago, Albus Bulbasaur said:

I don't think anyone could reasonably argue with certainty that SNP winning a GE would mean Scotland wants independence even if the SNP try and frame it that way, like they've done previously multiple times. 

That’s the method we use to elect a Westminster government and people think that’s okay. If a party is standing on a single issue of independence, why would you vote for that party unless you want independence?

[Albus Bulbasaur]

1 minute ago, Dons_1988 said:

So therein lies the original question, what is the democratic (i.e. the people of Scotland) route to independence if voting SNP on a clear mandate for a referendum doesn’t give them ‘powers above their station’ and a Westminster government has no inclination to allow a vote? 

They would need to change the mind of Westminster in this scenario. That's where the power lies. Get Labour or the Tories or whoever else to promise a Scottish referendum and get elected. 

I think some people seriously overestimate what Holyrood and devolution actually means. 

[Antlion]

6 minutes ago, Dawson Park Boy said:

Actually, I read the other day that since 2016, GDP in the UK has increased more than in the EU.

i know statistics can be made to say anything but I found that surprising.

Brexit has certainly not been a disaster as far as I am concerned and, in time, I think it will be positive.

So you voted based on your own thinking? No “specifics” provided by Johnson, Farage, et al. in advance? If so, you have no right to demand “specifics” as to what the Scottish government will do with independence; you support major constitutional change based on what you think will be positive.

[welshbairn]

7 minutes ago, Dawson Park Boy said:

That opens up more questions than answers.

What difference will controlling monetary policy make and to what effect?

Regarding single market trading with the EU presumably you mean EFTA membership. How would that effect trading with our main partner, RUK?

We could set monetary policy appropriate to the Scottish economy rather than the South East of England. Northern Ireland is part of the EU single market as well as the UK, but for some very limited and minor checks, as is Liechtenstein vis a vis Switzerland and the EU. Start off with a positive outlook and you'll find most barriers are surmountable.  

 

[Albus Bulbasaur]

Just now, Scary Bear said:

That’s the method we use to elect a Westminster government and people think that’s okay. If a party is standing on a single issue of independence, why would you vote for that party unless you want independence?

I'm a bit lost at this part?

On the second part, it doesn't matter why people vote for who they do, you can't decide something is single issue for other people. If Labour or Tories stand candidates and even one of them wants to talk about anything other than the constitution that's this notion burst. People have always voted SNP without wanting Indy that wouldn't change just because Nicola says so. 

[Jacksgranda]

36 minutes ago, Salt n Vinegar said:

As far as I know, the only gap between referenda that the Government has ever legislated for is 7 years. If anyone except the voters in the area MUST be given a say on the time interval, wouldn’t it be reasonable to match that? I'm not agreeing the notion of others apart from the Scottish electorate deciding when the time is "right", but if I did, I couldn't accept a longer period than was felt appropriate in NI. The key point I'd keep in mind is that it shouldn't be up to anyone but voters in Scotland to determine their political future, at any time of their choice. 

BTW, it's already 7 years, 9 months and 11 days since the previous indyref. Too soon? Must be another case of "except for viewers in Norther Ireland". 

When was the last border poll in Northern Ireland?

[Albus Bulbasaur]

Just now, oaksoft said:

You're actually answering a different question to the one I'm asking and you've deliberately ignored the moving goalposts argument but I'll leave it at that. For whatever reason, you're not debating in good faith.

Just as an aside, the British have form for digging their heels in and denying countries a legitimate right to decide for themselves whether they should be independent or not. From India to Ireland and everywhere in between, you might want to ask yourself what happens when countries get repeatedly denied in this regard. When you consider that, you'll have the reason why it's crucial to respect democracy regardless of whether or not you agree with the thing being asked of you.

Certainly managing with everyone else fine. Probably says something more about your style of debating or discussing issues with people and your need to try and be superior online champ. 

[Dons_1988]

4 minutes ago, Albus Bulbasaur said:

They would need to change the mind of Westminster in this scenario. That's where the power lies. Get Labour or the Tories or whoever else to promise a Scottish referendum and get elected. 

I think some people seriously overestimate what Holyrood and devolution actually means. 

So I get that, but that depends on who England elect and a whole load of politics in between. 

Do you not see the serious issue here? I know you don’t want Scottish independence but there’s a fundamental point that Scotland has no democratic route out of the union if it wants it. That’s a real problem, whether you support it or not. 

[G51]

46 minutes ago, Salt n Vinegar said:

As far as I know, the only gap between referenda that the Government has ever legislated for is 7 years. If anyone except the voters in the area MUST be given a say on the time interval, wouldn’t it be reasonable to match that? I'm not agreeing the notion of others apart from the Scottish electorate deciding when the time is "right", but if I did, I couldn't accept a longer period than was felt appropriate in NI. The key point I'd keep in mind is that it shouldn't be up to anyone but voters in Scotland to determine their political future, at any time of their choice. 

BTW, it's already 7 years, 9 months and 11 days since the previous indyref. Too soon? Must be another case of "except for viewers in Norther Ireland". 

There's a very good and obvious reason why the time interval was specified for Northern Ireland, but wasn't for Scotland.

[SuperSaints1877]

I’d love to know a decent argument for staying in the Union if you live in Scotland.

What is project Fear this time based on?