When will indyref2 happen?

[Todders]

All GERS figures show that in or out of the Union our economic situation remains the same.

 

They show no such thing you clown. It's a flawed snapshot of how scotland is performing under the union and nothing else.

[Todders]

Enough of this irrelevant pish about whether old folk or young folk are better with computers


The fact of the matter is that information is now more freely available to more people than ever before and it just so happens that the portals to this information is more likely to be used by younger generations.

[ScotSquid]

On the actual topic I think the GERS figures will greatly reduce the chances of another indyref this Parliamentary term. the SNP can't produce another white paper in this climate that doesn't look horrific for a fledgling indyScot. 

It's going to be difficult to find reasons not to call one given the useful idiot types will be clamouring for it, but I think they might go down the road of 'wait a judicious time to see the full impact of Brexit yadda yadda yadda ' to avoid having to call a referendum the SNP don't think they'll win.

Going to be fascinating all the same . 

[jakedee]

On the actual topic I think the GERS figures will greatly reduce the chances of another indyref this Parliamentary term. the SNP can't produce another white paper in this climate that doesn't look horrific for a fledgling indyScot.

It's going to be difficult to find reasons not to call one given the useful idiot types will be clamouring for it, but I think they might go down the road of 'wait a judicious time to see the full impact of Brexit yadda yadda yadda ' to avoid having to call a referendum the SNP don't think they'll win.

Going to be fascinating all the same .

Great idea,call a referendum you can't win,that'll catch on.Why would a referendum be called before the "full impact of Brexit" is known, nothing will have changed untill then."Useful idiots clamouring for it" I'm sure the SNP sheep will keep them in line. [emoji57]

[renton]

15 minutes ago, ScotSquid said:

On the actual topic I think the GERS figures will greatly reduce the chances of another indyref this Parliamentary term. the SNP can't produce another white paper in this climate that doesn't look horrific for a fledgling indyScot. 

It's going to be difficult to find reasons not to call one given the useful idiot types will be clamouring for it, but I think they might go down the road of 'wait a judicious time to see the full impact of Brexit yadda yadda yadda ' to avoid having to call a referendum the SNP don't think they'll win.

Going to be fascinating all the same . 

The question becomes whether or not they produce a white paper in the same way again. One problem with it last time was it looked like a manifesto for a 5 year parliament, rather than the architectural underpinnings of a new nation. All the same, I still think you could put together any number of radical proposals that would negate the budget deficit difference between Scotland and the UK, but it would depend on the messaging any new yes campaign went for.

Still, I don't think GERS would stop another campaign, if only because the SNP response to GERS so far is to glibly dismiss it, they don't take it seriously and they must not think the electorate takes it that seriously either. The interesting thing is that despite every piece of analysis on brexit told people there would be financial armageddon, and that has yet come to pass, so there is an argument that people will happily ignore analysis like GERS if they choose to, also so far the lack of a 'fall of Rome type scenario puts a pin in what was the No campaign's previous big argument.

Brexit is the thing though, the SNP need to wait on it. Because Brexit needs to change minds. If it doesn't, there is no point going for another referendum. Brexit might not change minds if the UK government comes up with a solution that protects free trade, or if there genuinely is a reverse Greenland solution for Scotland. So there are presently any number of permutations that could stop a 2nd referendum in it's tracks, and the SNP need to see how invocation of article 50, and subsequent negotiations play out before calling one.

[Fide]

When will this addled, lying old has been finally f**k off?

[ScotSquid]

3 hours ago, renton said:

The question becomes whether or not they produce a white paper in the same way again. One problem with it last time was it looked like a manifesto for a 5 year parliament, rather than the architectural underpinnings of a new nation. All the same, I still think you could put together any number of radical proposals that would negate the budget deficit difference between Scotland and the UK, but it would depend on the messaging any new yes campaign went for.

Still, I don't think GERS would stop another campaign, if only because the SNP response to GERS so far is to glibly dismiss it, they don't take it seriously and they must not think the electorate takes it that seriously either. The interesting thing is that despite every piece of analysis on brexit told people there would be financial armageddon, and that has yet come to pass, so there is an argument that people will happily ignore analysis like GERS if they choose to, also so far the lack of a 'fall of Rome type scenario puts a pin in what was the No campaign's previous big argument.

Brexit is the thing though, the SNP need to wait on it. Because Brexit needs to change minds. If it doesn't, there is no point going for another referendum. Brexit might not change minds if the UK government comes up with a solution that protects free trade, or if there genuinely is a reverse Greenland solution for Scotland. So there are presently any number of permutations that could stop a 2nd referendum in it's tracks, and the SNP need to see how invocation of article 50, and subsequent negotiations play out before calling one.

Well their response to GERS has been the usual. A few desperate articles in the national and pretend it isn't accurate.

Of course they are being hoist by their own petard and laughed at given the white paper loved calling them authoritative. 

But the difference now is thar they are being eviscerated even by their usual go to options like Margaret Cuthbert. As she said, if anything the GERS figures may be hiding a greater problem and under representing the problem iScot will face.

The MPs and MSPs are wilfully issuing false nonsense (the latest being the London sewers canard I see) which will keep the bottom feeder types happy, but it's not the bedrock of a winning campaign. 

Nicola Sturgeon definitely doesn't want indy2. Her best hope now is either that May doesn't invoke Art 50 next year at all or that Westminster block an attempt at a new official referendum. Both are feasible if not likely. 

[Fide]

10 minutes ago, ScotSquid said:

Well their response to GERS has been the usual. A few desperate articles in the national and pretend it isn't accurate.

 

No one's saying the figures aren't accurate, Anthony.

They absolutely show how dreadfully Scotland is being run as part of the UK.

The fact you want to continue to show deference shows what a simpleton you truly are.

[renton]

1 hour ago, ScotSquid said:

Well their response to GERS has been the usual. A few desperate articles in the national and pretend it isn't accurate.

Of course they are being hoist by their own petard and laughed at given the white paper loved calling them authoritative. 

But the difference now is thar they are being eviscerated even by their usual go to options like Margaret Cuthbert. As she said, if anything the GERS figures may be hiding a greater problem and under representing the problem iScot will face.

The MPs and MSPs are wilfully issuing false nonsense (the latest being the London sewers canard I see) which will keep the bottom feeder types happy, but it's not the bedrock of a winning campaign. 

Nicola Sturgeon definitely doesn't want indy2. Her best hope now is either that May doesn't invoke Art 50 next year at all or that Westminster block an attempt at a new official referendum. Both are feasible if not likely. 

It's the usual response because no one is listening, so they by and large get away with it. As to being laughed at/eviscerated that's not really capturing the general political atmosphere at the minute, indeed it's hyperbolic. Ultimately the problem for the Union regarding GERS is that it's an absolutely woeful tale of how the Union has run and continues to run Scotland. No doubt citing it in the white paper creates political difficulties, but it's very much dependent on the messagin of any notional future campaign as to what relevance the last white paper has. There are methods by which a future Scottish government could reduce the deficit which would minimise cuts to frontline public services, there is a dependency on the debt levels we inherit as well. There is no doubt the next campaign should be more upfront about those challenges it'll still face.

Whether Sturgeon wants Indy2 or not is absolutely dependent on Brexit and not GERS. That's the potential game changer. Polls immediately after showed a surge in the Yes vote, the next and last poll shoewed a reverison to mean, with different companies and methodologies it's hard to be defnitiive but there is the potential for brexit to change minds on Indy. Yet Sturgeon can't call one just now, she needs article 50 invoked, she needs to know what brexit is going to look like and she needs to determine Scotland's place in that scheme and what, if any mitigation there is for Scotland to 'stay in'. As much as poltiics is often reduced to gamesmanship, I think she's acting responsibly. It may well be that her own political instincts for Indy mesh with the only real solution for keeping Scotland in the EU, yet it can't be her first recourse, she's undertaking the pantomime, trying to look at other non Indy solutions that maintain Scotland's place in the EU, what else can she do? This isn't going to happen in the next few months, she'll wait until after the A50 invocation, and I think it'd be a shorter campaign, within the withdrawal terms set by A50.

By the way, why did you drop the HB monikor, forget your login?

[North Terrace Gazza]

5 hours ago, Fide said:

No one's saying the figures aren't accurate, Anthony.

They absolutely show how dreadfully Scotland is being run as part of the UK.

The fact you want to continue to show deference shows what a simpleton you truly are.

Fide your dead right for once in your life. The GERS figures do show how badly Scotland is being run as part of the UK at the moment, by a totally incompetent FM and her SNP ministers.

[McSpreader]

1 hour ago, North Terrace Gazza said:

Fide your dead right for once in your life. The GERS figures do show how badly Scotland is being run as part of the UK at the moment, by a totally incompetent FM and her SNP ministers.

Scotland is a constituent part of the UK....fact.

Sturgeon and the SNP have been entrusted by the Scottish electorate to do the best job possible of running Scotland from Holyrood within the framework of the UK for the benefit of the citizens of Scotland......fact

Sturgeon and the SNP have decided that they would rather use their time in office and the state apparatus to promulgate their own personal political ambition of Independence rather than do the job entrusted to them by the Scottish electorate of improving the lives of the citizens of Scotland.....fact

In prioritising that course of action , Sturgeon and the SNP are failing the citizens of Scotland to their collective detriment......fact

Conclusion....time to drop this obsession with independence and the uncertainty that accompanies it and get on with the job of running Scotland, within the framework of the UK, to the material benefit of the citizens of Scotland. It can be done. They simply choose not to!

[John Lambies Doos]

Scotland is a constituent part of the UK....fact.

Sturgeon and the SNP have been entrusted by the Scottish electorate to do the best job possible of running Scotland from Holyrood within the framework of the UK for the benefit of the citizens of Scotland......fact

Sturgeon and the SNP have decided that they would rather use their time in office and the state apparatus to promulgate their own personal political ambition of Independence rather than do the job entrusted to them by the Scottish electorate of improving the lives of the citizens of Scotland.....fact

In prioritising that course of action , Sturgeon and the SNP are failing the citizens of Scotland to their collective detriment......fact

Conclusion....time to drop this obsession with independence and the uncertainty that accompanies it and get on with the job of running Scotland, within the framework of the UK, to the material benefit of the citizens of Scotland. It can be done. They simply choose not to!

McMinter

[John Lambies Doos]

When things go well they take the credit. When they do badly they attribute blame elsewhere.

^ sevco

[Highlandmagyar]

^ sevco

Fuckwit

[John Lambies Doos]

Fuckwit

What rattled your cage HM

[Fide]

Oh, unionists

If only you all had 2 brain cells between you.

[Isthatyou]

Oh, unionists [emoji20]

If only you all had 2 brain cells between you.

If they had 2, some would say that would be twice as a much as the Nats, left yourself a little exposed there, champ

[Big Rider]

When you say Nats you mean BritNats don't you?

[John Lambies Doos]

If they had 2, some would say that would be twice as a much as the Nats, left yourself a little exposed there, champ

More Scotnats on pie and bovril than britnats I'd wager....

[Todders]

And there is vastly more quantities of ill informed, unverified or utterly duplicitous information which to wade through.

And of course you don't get any if that in the traditional media outlets, do you?

The more sources of information somebody has at their fingertips the more likely they are to be well informed. Wouldn't you agree?