When will indyref2 happen?

[Carnoustie Young Guvnor]

2 minutes ago, Londonwell said:

I see this sort of argument from a few people but I think you forget that the plan was to have a referendum last year. Unfortunately a wee thing called a world wide pandemic got in the way. I know you and others like you are impatient but what would you have done differently under the circumstances? 

That plan was over long before Covid, the plan required a s30 that she had been denied twice, and she meekly accepted it both times without any reaction at all. 

What I would have done is this. The morning after the Brexit vote I would have hired the best team of constitutional lawyers that money can buy, and instructed them to prepare the paperwork to take the British government to the Court of Session. 

Then I would have written to May, as NS did, requesting a s30 order.  When May said 'now is not the time' I would have called a press conference for 11am the next morning, and invited every journalist in the world. There I would have announced at 9am this morning the Scottish government initiated legal proceedings against the British government.

That was over five and a half years ago. Imagine where we could have been now. Instead NS did nothing whatsoever, and the mandate we, the people of Scotland, gave her to hold indyref2 in this parliament is about to expire unused.  Not even attempted to be used.  Shameful. Now we face Brexit because she let us down.

[GNU_Linux]

34 minutes ago, oneteaminglasgow said:

Can gay people not be bigots?

Better tell Milo Yianoppolous that he’s in the clear.

David Starkey likes this.

[Erih Shtrep]

Anyone who's followed 'Rev' Stuart Campbells behaviour towards James Kelly during the last week would realise - if they hadn't already - that he's a psychopath.    He could easy chase someone down and kill them.   

 

[Ira Gaines]

Is Ludo just going to keep getting accused of saying things he never said here?

[Guest Bob Mahelp]

Whereas I don't always disagree with Cherry, she's the candidate that appeals to the nutcase element of the independence support.

If she was SNP leader, the media, Tories, everybody that hates independence, would have a field day. They would paint her as an extremist, and they'd be right. The natural consequence is that support for independence would drop from 58% to 40%, as moderates and 'middle Scotland' turned away from the idea. 

It's a 'no' from me, never, ever. 

 

[Erih Shtrep]

Just now, Bob Mahelp said:

Whereas I don't always disagree with Cherry, she's the candidate that appeals to the nutcase element of the independence support.

If she was SNP leader, the media, Tories, everybody that hates independence, would have a field day. They would paint her as an extremist, and they'd be right. The natural consequence is that support for independence would drop from 58% to 40%, as moderates and 'middle Scotland' turned away from the idea. 

It's a 'no' from me, never, ever. 

 

Indeed.  And there's nothing wrong with Cherry, MacAskill, and Campbell gently reminding Nicola Sturgeon the SNP has independence for Scotland at it's heart.  

[Londonwell]

3 minutes ago, Carnoustie Young Guvnor said:

That plan was over long before Covid, the plan required a s30 that she had been denied twice, and she meekly accepted it both times without any reaction at all. 

What I would have done is this. The morning after the Brexit vote I would have hired the best team of constitutional lawyers that money can buy, and instructed them to prepare the paperwork to take the British government to the Court of Session. 

Then I would have written to May, as NS did, requesting a s30 order.  When May said 'now is not the time' I would have called a press conference for 11am the next morning, and invited every journalist in the world. There I would have announced at 9am this morning the Scottish government initiated legal proceedings against the British government.

That was over five and a half years ago. Imagine where we could have been now. Instead NS did nothing whatsoever, and the mandate we, the people of Scotland, gave her to hold indyref2 in this parliament is about to expire unused.  Not even attempted to be used.  Shameful. Now we face Brexit because she let us down.

How do you know they haven’t sought legal advice? Of course they have. 

[welshbairn]

1 minute ago, Stinky Bone said:

What is your strategy? 

Step one, to get as big an SNP vote as possible in May, with an independence referendum top of the manifesto, so a mandate. The way to get that is not to replace one of the most popular leaders on the planet with someone whose own staff can't stand her, far less the wider public. 

Step two, to be decided at the time, if refused with a convincing majority. It certainly won't be doing a behind closed doors deal with Westminster without another referendum as Cherry advocates, in her Irish example which was followed by a civil war.

[Carnoustie Young Guvnor]

2 minutes ago, Londonwell said:

How do you know they haven’t sought legal advice? Of course they have. 

It doesn't matter, they didn't do anything with it did they?  The only person that has is Martin Keatings and the SNP, directed by NS, tried to block it.

[Ira Gaines]

I don't like getting a mandate in May getting brought up. They had a mandate, waited years and here we are.

For what it's worth, I think the plan is definitely to ask pretty much right away, take the no that they expect, and then take it to court. f**k knows what happens at that point. But it's pretty much the only way to go now, given anything else would probably see the international community turn their backs.

[Carnoustie Young Guvnor]

3 minutes ago, welshbairn said:

Step one, to get as big an SNP vote as possible in May, with an independence referendum top of the manifesto, so a mandate. The way to get that is not to replace one of the most popular leaders on the planet with someone whose own staff can't stand her, far less the wider public. 

Step two, to be decided at the time, if refused with a convincing majority. It certainly won't be doing a behind closed doors deal with Westminster without another referendum as Cherry advocates, in her Irish example which was followed by a civil war.

But all that is is replicating exactly the circumstances we had in 2016, five years earlier, except now we're out of the EU. They've had five years to find a way forward, and come up with nothing. 

[Londonwell]

Just now, Carnoustie Young Guvnor said:

It doesn't matter, they didn't do anything with it did they?  The only person that has is Martin Keatings and the SNP, directed by NS, tried to block it.

What happens if the legal advice isn’t favourable? They can only do something with it if it is. You seem to be assuming that this is the key to the whole thing, when there isn’t one. 

[Erih Shtrep]

Just now, Andre Drazen said:

I don't like getting a mandate in May getting brought up. They had a mandate, waited years and here we are.

For what it's worth, I think the plan is definitely to ask pretty much right away, take the no that they expect, and then take it to court. f**k knows what happens at that point. But it's pretty much the only way to go now, given anything else would probably see the international community turn their backs.

Problem with that is we're going to court in a fortnight.  Probably the reason the SNP didn't support the action.  

[Erih Shtrep]

Just now, Londonwell said:

What happens if the legal advice isn’t favourable? They can only do something with it if it is. You seem to be assuming that this is the key to the whole thing, when there isn’t one. 

What do you the SNP should do if Section 30 is found to be ultra vires?  

[Carnoustie Young Guvnor]

Just now, Andre Drazen said:

I don't like getting a mandate in May getting brought up. They had a mandate, waited years and here we are.

For what it's worth, I think the plan is definitely to ask pretty much right away, take the no that they expect, and then take it to court. f**k knows what happens at that point. But it's pretty much the only way to go now, given anything else would probably see the international community turn their backs.

Unfortunately I agree. The only way to resolve this is through court, and the SNP should have seen this five years ago, and not wasted half a decade trying to overturn a democratic vote in England. Now we face years out of the EU with our economy and society being reconstructed in the image of Jacob Rees fucking Mogg and they failed to protect us from that.

I'm fucking FURIOUS with them. What is the point in even voting SNP? We gave them levels of support no party at WM has had this side of WWII, and they did f**k all with it, and now we all suffer. That can't ever happen again.  See if they tried and failed that's fine I'll back them all the way, but the fact that they didn't even fucking try is practically unforgivable imo.  We need indy fast or this leadership gone one or the other.

[Carnoustie Young Guvnor]

3 minutes ago, Londonwell said:

What happens if the legal advice isn’t favourable? They can only do something with it if it is. You seem to be assuming that this is the key to the whole thing, when there isn’t one. 

Then we're fucked anyway and in exactly the same position that we are in right now, so there's no reason not to try, they have literally nothing to lose. The worst case scenario we find ourselves in exactly the position we are in right now. And that's NS has achieved for us, absolutely f**k all, NI got a bespoke deal, Gibraltar got a bespoke deal, Scotland got nothing. And we're the place all studies show will be hit hardest by Brexit, we gave her a stronger mandate with a higher level of support than any other leader in the UK, and she got us nothing, not one thing at all.  We got bent over and reamed stupid, and NS did nothing whatsoever about it.

She couldn't even achieve what is written in stone in the GFA in NI that they can have a referendum every seven years, she has managed to achieve 41 years for us so well done there eh, looking forward to that in 2055.

[Ludo*1]

17 minutes ago, Stinky Bone said:

The thick as f**k trope could apply to you too, for assuming we will have an Indyref2 in 2021. 

Where did I assume that? You another that just makes things up?

[Londonwell]

3 minutes ago, Erih Shtrep said:

What do you the SNP should do if Section 30 is found to be ultra vires?  

Do you mean a referendum without a S30? 
 

If so, I mean it’s something I suppose, would probably take a lot for a cautious NS to consider though. Didn’t work out too well for Catalonia as I recall but I think circumstances will dictate at the time. There isn’t going to a ref before the elections obviously so why don’t we just focus on what’s in front of us and look at winning a majority there.

[DeeTillEhDeh]

I don't like getting a mandate in May getting brought up. They had a mandate, waited years and here we are.

For what it's worth, I think the plan is definitely to ask pretty much right away, take the no that they expect, and then take it to court. f**k knows what happens at that point. But it's pretty much the only way to go now, given anything else would probably see the international community turn their backs.

Even Cherry was backing that plan - until the recent Ireland nonsense.

[DeeTillEhDeh]

Unfortunately I agree. The only way to resolve this is through court, and the SNP should have seen this five years ago, and not wasted half a decade trying to overturn a democratic vote in England. Now we face years out of the EU with our economy and society being reconstructed in the image of Jacob Rees fucking Mogg and they failed to protect us from that.
I'm fucking FURIOUS with them. What is the point in even voting SNP? We gave them levels of support no party at WM has had this side of WWII, and they did f**k all with it, and now we all suffer. That can't ever happen again.  See if they tried and failed that's fine I'll back them all the way, but the fact that they didn't even fucking try is practically unforgivable imo.  We need indy fast or this leadership gone one or the other.

5 years ago polls were not in favour of independence.