When will indyref2 happen?

[DeeTillEhDeh]

The last referendum on English North East Assemblies was the best part of 20 years ago though...That did kill wider devolution at the time, but not necessarily for good.
Not sure about it needing to slice England up into North East, South West etc...why could there not be simply an English parliament, taking decisions on purely English affairs? I know that EVEL was an attempt to do that, but, with the SNP being the third biggest party at Westminster, not sure that its viewed that way by public opinion down south.
Germany has Landers of differing sizes as well, but manages to operate a Federal government. Canada...again differing regional sizes.

The problem is the UK has one nation that is disproportionately bigger than the others - can you really see a federal government where the 3 Celtic nations can veto England?

I can't.

Any federal solution has to salami England to work.

I know it was 20 years ago but I still don't see any real enthusiasm for regional government in England.

[invergowrie arab]

8 minutes ago, Jedi said:

The last referendum on English North East Assemblies was the best part of 20 years ago though...That did kill wider devolution at the time, but not necessarily for good.

Not sure about it needing to slice England up into North East, South West etc...why could there not be simply an English parliament, taking decisions on purely English affairs? I know that EVEL was an attempt to do that, but, with the SNP being the third biggest party at Westminster, not sure that its viewed that way by public opinion down south.

Germany has Landers of differing sizes as well, but manages to operate a Federal government. Canada...again differing regional sizes.

Ontario has 38% of the Canadian population, Nord-Rhein Westfalen 20% of Germany

 England is 85% of UK.

 

[Guest Jedi]

Some of the reasons given for Brexit were the feelings in parts of England which felt 'distant' from London. They saw the vote as an opportunity to register dissatisfaction with the disparity between their own local situation and decisions being taken to mostly benefit London and the South East at Westminster. Of course there were various other causes...immigration, 30 years of the right wing media disparaging the EU, lack of understanding of the economic fallout, the lies told by the Leave campaign etc.

However, surely a conversation which sought to address the issue of moving decision making closer to the North East, North West, Midlands etc could have some merit. Whilst I would still prefer an English parliament at the centre it may be that England could be divided up more into regions.

[Guest Jedi]

5 minutes ago, invergowrie arab said:

Ontario has 38% of the Canadian population, Nord-Rhein Westfalen 20% of Germany

 England is 85% of UK.

 

So, again it might require a proper devolved system across England, with a North East Assembly, a Midlands Assembly etc, and with each area plus Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland sending elected representatives to a Council which met maybe 4 times a year. 

If taxation raised in the Midlands, North East etc could be largely retained, and spent 'locally', it would offer people in those areas a much higher sense of responsibility.

Also, does the EU not work as a form of federalism? Yet Scotland 'being back' in the EU, subject to EU laws/regulations works as a partnership, but not within the UK?

Edited December 18, 2020 by Jedi

[invergowrie arab]

24 minutes ago, Jedi said:

So, again it might require a proper devolved system across England, with a North East Assembly, a Midlands Assembly etc, and with each area plus Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland sending elected representatives to a Council which met maybe 4 times a year. 

If taxation raised in the Midlands, North East etc could be largely retained, and spent 'locally', it would offer people in those areas a much higher sense of responsibility.

Also, does the EU not work as a form of federalism? Yet Scotland 'being back' in the EU, subject to EU laws/regulations works as a partnership, but not within the UK?

I'm not arguing that a true form of federalism with, unequal but a sliding scale, of regions isn't an idea worth exploration but there isn't the appetite for it. 

Even if Labour seriously proposed it the current system requires Scotland crossing our fingers that England as a whole elects that Labour govt.

[welshbairn]

28 minutes ago, Jedi said:

So, again it might require a proper devolved system across England, with a North East Assembly, a Midlands Assembly etc, and with each area plus Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland sending elected representatives to a Council which met maybe 4 times a year. 

If taxation raised in the Midlands, North East etc could be largely retained, and spent 'locally', it would offer people in those areas a much higher sense of responsibility.

Also, does the EU not work as a form of federalism? Yet Scotland 'being back' in the EU, subject to EU laws/regulations works as a partnership, but not within the UK?

Nobody else in the UK is pushing for anything like this, it's a Labour ploy to put independence on the back burner now that the polls are swinging markedly in its favour. Divert and delay, like the Vow, except there have been no empty promises on this version. It's not going to happen, nobody wants it. Do you really think the North East would want to rely on their own tax raising powers when the whole economy and investment structures are targeted on the South East and have been for decades?

Edited December 18, 2020 by welshbairn

[NotThePars]

The best thing for the long term survival of the UK would be the division of England into different units. Alex Niven has a good book about how England as a concept is basically fake - New Model Island.

Westminster should give concessions fo the nascent Northumbrian Independence Party. That’s 15 million people right there.

[DukDukGoose]

On 17/12/2020 at 20:42, Stormzy said:

Excellent post. 

As a Unionist the destruction of Scottish Labour is annoying for me. I would see myself as a centrist that would happily vote Labour over Conservative generally speaking but I am put in the position where I need to vote for Conservatives to protect the Union as I can't trust that Labour will do so and there's a lot of Scottish people that have been put into that awkward position also and I fully appreciate that some Scottish people that may be pro Unionist sentiments can't bring themselves to vote for the Tories and have therefore opted for SNP or Lib Dems/Greens whilst also not being fully in support of SI. 

If Labour supported Indy I think we may have seen it by now. 

 

If you made more posts like this then you wouldn't receive the insults that seem to annoy you.

[Guest Jedi]

2 hours ago, welshbairn said:

Nobody else in the UK is pushing for anything like this, 

Some snippets from last years GE Maifestio's

Lib Dems

Introduce a written constitution for a federal United Kingdom

'Devolve further revenue-raising powers away from Westminster, to regions from Cornwall to North East England'

''Enact permissive legislation to empower groups of authorities to come together to establish devolved governance – for example to a Cornish Assembly or a Yorkshire Parliament.'

Reform the House of Lords with a proper democratic mandate.

Labour

Act immediately to end the hereditary principle in the House of Lords, and work to abolish the House of Lords in favour of Labour’s preferred option of an elected Senate of the Nations and Regions. 

Decentralise decision-making and strengthen local democracy. 

Bring about a radical decentralisation of power in Britain so that local people and communities are given far greater control over their own lives and prospects.

Build up the regional offices of government in each of the nine English regions to co-ordinate government policies at the regional level, as well as ensuring a regional voice in Whitehall.

Give powers and funding to every region and nation of the UK

Our Regional Development Banks will be governed by boards made up of key local stakeholders such as local chambers of commerce, trade unions and councillors – with Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland empowered to make similar arrangements. They will set priorities for lending, giving every region and nation a new and powerful lever to rebuild their economy on their own terms.

Source: https://local.gov.uk/sites/default/files/documents/Brexit manifesto.pdf

Even the Tories are in on the act....

Publish an English Devolution White Paper setting out our plans next year.

[The] ambition is for full devolution across England, 

Edited December 18, 2020 by Jedi

[John Lambies Doos]

Some snippets from last years GE Maifestio's
Lib Dems
Introduce a written constitution for a federal United Kingdom
'Devolve further revenue-raising powers away from Westminster, to regions from Cornwall to North East England'
''Enact permissive legislation to empower groups of authorities to come together to establish devolved governance – for example to a Cornish Assembly or a Yorkshire Parliament.'
Reform the House of Lords with a proper democratic mandate.
Labour
Act immediately to end the hereditary principle in the House of Lords, and work to abolish the House of Lords in favour of Labour’s preferred option of an elected Senate of the Nations and Regions. 
Decentralise decision-making and strengthen local democracy. 
Bring about a radical decentralisation of power in Britain so that local people and communities are given far greater control over their own lives and prospects.
Build up the regional offices of government in each of the nine English regions to co-ordinate government policies at the regional level, as well as ensuring a regional voice in Whitehall.
Give powers and funding to every region and nation of the UK
Our Regional Development Banks will be governed by boards made up of key local stakeholders such as local chambers of commerce, trade unions and councillors – with Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland empowered to make similar arrangements. They will set priorities for lending, giving every region and nation a new and powerful lever to rebuild their economy on their own terms.
Source: https://local.gov.uk/sites/default/files/documents/Brexit manifesto.pdf
 

Unfortunately not in power and never will be

Sent from my VFD 710 using Pie and Bovril mobile app

[Guest Jedi]

The Tories?

[welshbairn]

33 minutes ago, Jedi said:

Labour

I'm sure Corbyn will get right on it now that he's had his party membership card returned by that nice Mr Starmer.

[Guest Jedi]

Starmer's announcement on devolution on Monday, so we will see what the 'update' on Corbyn's 2019 Manifesto is.

[Ira Gaines]

Couldn't really care what Labour have to say tbh. They're not in power and won't be for quite some time.

[SANTAN]

2 hours ago, Merkland Red said:

If you made more posts like this then you wouldn't receive the insults that seem to annoy you.

I don't often get given the chance tbf but I get the sentiment. 

[John Lambies Doos]

The Tories?

No, the rest...and you know that

[git-intae-thum]

There are all kinds of unresolvable issues that meant federalism was never a realistic prospect in the UK.

Too late now anyway. Anything that ties us to the xenophobic loonball element who seem to make up a substantial portion of the electorate in the Southern half of this island is a non starter for the now clear majority in Scotland.

Nah. No thanks. Keep your pie in the sky federalist ideas. I do not want that Westminster parliament, be it coloured red or blue, having any further influence over the rest of my life or that of my kids.

[Baxter Parp]

[ICTJohnboy]

19 minutes ago, MixuFruit said:

I'm very confused about what the infographic is trying to tell me

 

It's certainly not a very persuasive case for Scotland being independent.

Despite that, I will still vote yes in Indy2.

[NotThePars]

These tale of the tapes are getting weirder by the week