When will indyref2 happen?

[SandyCromarty]

15 hours ago, NotThePars said:

 

I can think of a dozen problems with what you’ve said not least that it does likely matter what the PM thinks and to what extent the international community will recognise any declaration of independence that doesn’t jump the numerous hurdles of legitimacy

 

Also I feel that the last sentence ignores that the circumstances in which most countries became independent are usually unique and I think the vast majority of them don’t bear a lot of similarities to Scotland. A prosperous Western nation breaking free from a permanent UN Security Council member feels pretty unique, no?

You're right in that respect, but as I recall the last major number of countries declaring Independence were in Africa back in the sixties where countries achieved Independence from Colonial Rule  by various European countries.

With these there are two large differences between them and Scotland.

One is that the African borders were mostly drawn up under that Colonial Rule where borders did not exist previously and it was then they became defined countries.

Secondly Scotland was an Independent Sovereign state and never a Colonial state, ( though some little englanders would like to think so ), centuries before the 1707 Union and now it exists as a recognised country within a UK frameworrk.

As such we have every right to declare the UK is no longer in Scotlands interest, citing for example the differences between the two countries with the Brexit vote.

Scotland as a Nation has the legitimate and god given right to withdraw and declare Independence.

westminster can howl and attempt to deny all they want, but a Union is a condition of two or more equalities and any one can remove itself at any time if the people so desire.

It's that fuckin simple.

[SandyCromarty]

23 hours ago, MixuFruit said:

You can't help wondering if the big swanky UK Gov in Scotland building they made in Edinburgh to try to undermine Holyrood might end up being a focal point of civil disobedience in those circumstances.

I missed this, what is it all about??

[SandyCromarty]

21 hours ago, NotThePars said:

 

UDI is moon howling stuff but there is a big gap between politely requesting a referendum and unilaterally declaring independence. Otherwise you’re taking the begging bowl repeatedly to 10 Downing Street and hoping whoever’s occupying it will be gracious enough to let us have another one.

 

The clear argument is that we have to shake off this attitude of being a lesser/minor partner in this Union and that we have to go cap in hand and tugging forelocks to our masters begging.

We have a right to ask for a divorce if the union is not working to our satisfaction.

It is a union between two separate countries with our own legal systems and one partner cannot deny another's will. 

Edited September 5, 2020 by SandyCromarty

[NotThePars]

You're right in that respect, but as I recall the last major number of countries declaring Independence were in Africa back in the sixties where countries achieved Independence from Colonial Rule  by various European countries.
With these there are two large differences between them and Scotland.
One is that the African borders were mostly drawn up under that Colonial Rule where borders did not exist previously and it was then they became defined countries.
Secondly Scotland was an Independent Sovereign state and never a Colonial state, ( though some little englanders would like to think so ), centuries before the 1707 Union and now it exists as a recognised country within a UK frameworrk.
As such we have every right to declare the UK is no longer in Scotlands interest, citing for example the differences between the two countries with the Brexit vote.
Scotland as a Nation has the legitimate and god given right to withdraw and declare Independence.
westminster can howl and attempt to deny all they want, but a Union is a condition of two or more equalities and any one can remove itself at any time if the people so desire.
It's that fuckin simple.

If the courts say no, if Westminster says no, if the EU says no or nout to do with us, and the UN says no then it really isn’t that simple and what seem to be ultimately emotive arguments don’t change that.

[SandyCromarty]

1 hour ago, NotThePars said:

 

If the courts say no, if Westminster says no, if the EU says no or nout to do with us, and the UN says no then it really isn’t that simple and what seem to be ultimately emotive arguments don’t change that.

 

NO.

[NotThePars]

NO.

Imagine it all said in an Ian Paisley register. “WESTMINSTER SAYS NO, EU SAYS NO, UN SAYS NO”

[BFTD]

Does anyone really think that Sturgeon et al wouldn't find themselves in the jail if they went down the UDI route, with Holyrood being wound up or replaced with an administration taking orders directly from Westminster?

I understand if folk think that's the way to go because it would highlight how unfairly Scotland is being treated, whatever use that would be in the grand scheme of things, but we're all aware that's the situation, right? It seems like perhaps some folk are maybe thinking it's as easy as saying "you don't govern us anymore", and Westminster can do nothing but mutter curses under their breath about us calling their bluff.

[Dan Steele]

3 hours ago, NotThePars said:

 

If the courts say no, if Westminster says no, if the EU says no or nout to do with us, and the UN says no then it really isn’t that simple and what seem to be ultimately emotive arguments don’t change that.

 

It's going to be interesting to see how this will pan out. Westminster set the precedent for holding a referendum when the Edinburgh Agreement was signed, so it'll be fun watching them get tied in knots trying to say no this time. Could the UN say no, given the right to self determination is in their charter? The rumblings from the EU seem to be broadly supportive but I'd guess they'd adopt the same "not interfering" card. Bet there's talk behind the scenes though. 

As long as the poll results continue to rise, Westminster will find it increasingly more difficult to refuse a second referendum. They do seem jittery at the moment so probably not long before the media campaign against independence kicks off.

[NotThePars]

I presume you have read the articles I quoted, and realise that it is a political decision and not a legal one.   The legal stuff comes later.  Unless I am wrong, the UN, EU and westminster champion are in favour of democracy (although the latter is up for debate).  What could be more democratic than a nation deciding that is has had enough of a treaty and choosing to end it?  

As you will be aware, Scotland was a nation long before England.  If I am correct, Scotland 9th century, England 10th century.  We were a nation before England and as international recognition is important, and rightly so, the dissolving of a treaty that exists solely to undermine the "smaller" nation will not only be legal, but politically sound.  Look at the number of brexiteers that championed that line.  

We have to believe we can do this.  The world looks at its history and learns from it.  I believe the UN and the EU will look at history and recognise that Scotland existed long before England.

 

 

Might expand later but I will say that you’re wrong yes when it comes to those institutions being in favour of democracy at least when it isn’t politically useful to do so. The EU didn’t really give a shite about the Catalans being suppressed. Academic discussions about the lineage of the Scottish nation won’t mean a jot if it isn’t expedient for those we need to recognise us won’t recognise us. The UK probably still has enough cache, and the SNP don’t seem to be daring enough, to call any declaration of independence that doesn’t have the approval of Westminster and appears illegitimate.

 

I mean it’s ultimately a moot discussion since the SNP don’t give off any vibe that they’ll do anything illegal and there’s no countervailing force that’ll press them into doing it. There’s no abstentionism or armed wing either.

[D Angelo Barksdale]

Calling for UDI when the polls are 55%-45% is for the birds.

You would need to be polling 75%-80% to do this imo. 

We need to tread carefully when it comes to moving outside the norms of 'liberal democracy', even if other institutions have no qualms about doing so. I don't like it, but it is the reality of the situation we are in.

 

[The_Kincardine]

9 hours ago, Stinky Bone said:

I think Peter Bell has the right idea.  

https://ihavequestions.scot/2020/08/17/smart-advice/

https://ihavequestions.scot/2020/08/18/lets-be-reasonable/

The SNP are the party to get Scotlands Independence.  I think they should adopt the "Manifesto for Independence" immediately and campaign for the forthcoming Holyrood elections with that in mind.

Renounce section 30 process

Assert competence of Scottish parliament in constitutional matters

Recall MPs to join with MSPs in a national convention

Propose dissolution of union subject to referendum

Call referendum entirely made and managed in Scotland

Every ScotNat on here would privately agree with you so don't let them shoosh you.  The naysayers are overly cautious and their mealy-mouthed attitude is what's holding Scotland back.

I see that my big pal @SandyCromartyis another honest Natter who backs you up by stating, "Scotland as a Nation has the legitimate and god given right to withdraw and declare Independence" so at least the pair of you can support each other.

You should also organise a group of people to pursue the angle that, as you said, "under international law the Scottish people have a right to self determination" and take this as far as you can - demonstrating the democratic deficit under which Scotland has suffered.

Your commitment and candour is refreshing and I hope this approach garners more support and becomes openly expressed as it has an authentic voice.  Best wishes with it.

 

 

[DublinMagyar]

Every ScotNat on here would privately agree with you so don't let them shoosh you.  The naysayers are overly cautious and their mealy-mouthed attitude is what's holding Scotland back.
I see that my big pal [mention=2745]SandyCromarty[/mention]is another honest Natter who backs you up by stating, "Scotland as a Nation has the legitimate and god given right to withdraw and declare Independence" so at least the pair of you can support each other.
You should also organise a group of people to pursue the angle that, as you said, "under international law the Scottish people have a right to self determination" and take this as far as you can - demonstrating the democratic deficit under which Scotland has suffered.
Your commitment and candour is refreshing and I hope this approach garners more support and becomes openly expressed as it has an authentic voice.  Best wishes with it.
 
 

Que?

[Joey Jo Jo Junior Shabadoo]

9 minutes ago, The_Kincardine said:

Every ScotNat on here would privately agree with you so don't let them shoosh you.  The naysayers are overly cautious and their mealy-mouthed attitude is what's holding Scotland back.

I see that my big pal @SandyCromartyis another honest Natter who backs you up by stating, "Scotland as a Nation has the legitimate and god given right to withdraw and declare Independence" so at least the pair of you can support each other.

You should also organise a group of people to pursue the angle that, as you said, "under international law the Scottish people have a right to self determination" and take this as far as you can - demonstrating the democratic deficit under which Scotland has suffered.

Your commitment and candour is refreshing and I hope this approach garners more support and becomes openly expressed as it has an authentic voice.  Best wishes with it.

 

 

^^^Word salad.

[ICTJohnboy]

9 hours ago, NotThePars said:

 

If the courts say no, if Westminster says no, if the EU says no or nout to do with us, and the UN says no then it really isn’t that simple and what seem to be ultimately emotive arguments don’t change that.

 

 

From the Herald March 17th...

SNP Brexit Secretary Michael Russell said: “Scotland is in a unique position, having been a member of the EU for 47 years and following all its rules. We continue to share the EU’s core values and our position is recognised and understood in Brussels.

“Donald Tusk, until recently the President of the European Council, has said there will be enthusiasm from everyone in Brussels for an independent Scotland’s membership of the EU and he spoke of the empathy for Scotland in Europe.

“The Scottish Government recognises there is an application process to go through and we will bring forward a detailed proposition in due course.”

 

[Benjamin_Nevis]

50 minutes ago, The_Kincardine said:

Every ScotNat on here would privately agree with you so don't let them shoosh you.  The naysayers are overly cautious and their mealy-mouthed attitude is what's holding Scotland back.

I see that my big pal @SandyCromartyis another honest Natter who backs you up by stating, "Scotland as a Nation has the legitimate and god given right to withdraw and declare Independence" so at least the pair of you can support each other.

You should also organise a group of people to pursue the angle that, as you said, "under international law the Scottish people have a right to self determination" and take this as far as you can - demonstrating the democratic deficit under which Scotland has suffered.

Your commitment and candour is refreshing and I hope this approach garners more support and becomes openly expressed as it has an authentic voice.  Best wishes with it.

 

 

*Hic*

[NotThePars]

1 hour ago, ICTJohnboy said:

 

From the Herald March 17th...

SNP Brexit Secretary Michael Russell said: “Scotland is in a unique position, having been a member of the EU for 47 years and following all its rules. We continue to share the EU’s core values and our position is recognised and understood in Brussels.

“Donald Tusk, until recently the President of the European Council, has said there will be enthusiasm from everyone in Brussels for an independent Scotland’s membership of the EU and he spoke of the empathy for Scotland in Europe.

“The Scottish Government recognises there is an application process to go through and we will bring forward a detailed proposition in due course.”

 

That's about an application to the EU which is several steps ahead of where we're discussing atm.

[DeeTillEhDeh]

Every ScotNat on here would privately agree with you so don't let them shoosh you.  The naysayers are overly cautious and their mealy-mouthed attitude is what's holding Scotland back. I see that my big pal [mention=2745]SandyCromarty[/mention]is another honest Natter who backs you up by stating, "Scotland as a Nation has the legitimate and god given right to withdraw and declare Independence" so at least the pair of you can support each other.

You should also organise a group of people to pursue the angle that, as you said, "under international law the Scottish people have a right to self determination" and take this as far as you can - demonstrating the democratic deficit under which Scotland has suffered.

Your commitment and candour is refreshing and I hope this approach garners more support and becomes openly expressed as it has an authentic voice.  Best wishes with it.

 

 

 

Quotes? 

 

 

Apart from the few yer da' types here most of us are firmly against any notion of UDI.

 

The only place this is happening is in your gib-sozzled brain.

 

 

 

[Paco]

How the hell are you guys all going down the route of referenda made and carried out by Scotland, UDI etc and not even managing to mention Catalonia?

Such a thing would be roundly ignored by the international community. The very last thing the EU with a strained relationship with London need is to be seen to be breaking up the UK. The US will prioritise the upcoming rip-off trade deal and will do nothing to jeopardise it, if they even notice or care. Russia will be all over it and that’s about it.

Not fair but entirely true. If the world doesn’t care enough to do a thing about Hong Kong, a genuinely major trade hub, it certainly doesn’t care about Scotland.

A referendum absolutely has to be backed up by something like the Edinburgh Agreement or it’ll be ignored by essentially everyone, including many in Scotland.

[SandyCromarty]

16 hours ago, MixuFruit said:

https://steelguru.com/infra/new-government-hub-handed-over-by-wates-smartspace-in-edinburgh/562663

Thanks for that, but why is there a need for another HMRC office when the East Kilbride office has been dealing with Scottish taxes for decades?

Is this another attempt by Westminster to impose another UK  office establishment in our capital.

[strichener]

17 minutes ago, SandyCromarty said:

Thanks for that, but why is there a need for another HMRC office when the East Kilbride office has been dealing with Scottish taxes for decades?

Is this another attempt by Westminster to impose another UK  office establishment in our capital.

Centre 1 is closing.