When will indyref2 happen?

[Loondave1]

You know what, I apologise, you’re absolutely right name calling won’t win any votes. I do feel strongly that peoples absolute loyalty to a union which beyond any reasonable doubt is not in our interest is beyond madness. If someone could actually tell me whats so special about being british that makes it worth tagging along with brexit, austerity and seemingly endless tory reign then i’d love to hear it?

You are to be commended for seeing the error in "name calling" and it's counter productivity to your main aim. I think a lot of people myself included would prefer to see a better Britain free of Tory extremism and using it's massive potential to be a decent functioning society. That said the current situation is sorely testing my patience and the next few years plus GE result will make me ask some questions at least. That said I still think any imminent Indy2 is liable to backfire spectacularly.

[NotThePars]

You know what, I apologise, you’re absolutely right name calling won’t win any votes. I do feel strongly that peoples absolute loyalty to a union which beyond any reasonable doubt is not in our interest is beyond madness. If someone could actually tell me whats so special about being british that makes it worth tagging along with brexit, austerity and seemingly endless tory reign then i’d love to hear it?

I think it’s alright to write people off who are blatantly not engaging in good faith but it’s just that the patter adopted is so hyper specific to the indy debate and probably comes across as inscrutable or cliquey to people that aren’t obsessed with the issue. Talking about the Yoon stuff and then calling people forelock tuggers or servile.

[Inanimate Carbon Rod]

I think it’s alright to write people off who are blatantly not engaging in good faith but it’s just that the patter adopted is so hyper specific to the indy debate and probably comes across as inscrutable or cliquey to people that aren’t obsessed with the issue. Talking about the Yoon stuff and then calling people forelock tuggers or servile.

For me it stems from the fact that the level of debate I tend to get is ‘because Rangers and the queen’. But its better to be positive going forward!

[Loondave1]

For me it stems from the fact that the level of debate I tend to get is ‘because Rangers and the queen’. But its better to be positive going forward!

If you live in the East of Scotland this is bollocks. I've always regarded it as a mainly weegie thing. Plenty non Nat voters don't give a monkey's about that stuff.

[Inanimate Carbon Rod]

If you live in the East of Scotland this is bollocks. I've always regarded it as a mainly weegie thing. Plenty non Nat voters don't give a monkey's about that stuff.

I just havent had a better argument since brexit, we are allowing England to walk us off a cliff but its somehow better then determining our own future? You surely have to agree that self deprication plays a part?

[Loondave1]

I just havent had a better argument since brexit, we are allowing England to walk us off a cliff but its somehow better then determining our own future? You surely have to agree that self deprication plays a part?

It is entirely relative. Some will see it as "determining our own future" and some will see it as walking off a different "cliff".

[jakedee]

In my opinion it is a deep lack of confidence mainly among older Scots at play. They are more willing, more comfortable even, enduring whatever collapse in living standards and whatnot comes along with Brexit than ever dare to do anything more radical as an independent nation.
 

This, the " more the devil you know" has never been more apt.

[Antlion]

1 hour ago, MixuFixit said:

In my opinion it is a deep lack of confidence mainly among older Scots at play. They are more willing, more comfortable even, enduring whatever collapse in living standards and whatnot comes along with Brexit than ever dare to do anything more radical as an independent nation.

 

I have sympathy with the “lack of confidence” from people who have never known anything other than the idea that their country is a small, dependent region of a larger country. Bear in mind that the UK state had untrammelled power in portraying Scotland exactly as it wanted for centuries. Only recently has even the idea of Scottish statehood become mainstream.

It’s those who go out of their way to misrepresent the place as a skint wee cling-on to ensure it stays one that are unfathomable. I remember at the time of the last referendum one “journalist” had his comments leaked and they openly advocated lying because the issue of Scotland realising its potential and voting for it was too big a risk to the UKplc. Anyone remember who the c**t was?

Edited December 20, 2018 by Antlion

[Merkie84]

17 hours ago, UsedToGoToCentralPark said:

On the positive side, indyref2 called, no wins, NS resigns and the SNP vote collapses.

Like their vote collapsed after the 2014 referendum loss?

[ICTJohnboy]

1 hour ago, MixuFixit said:

In my opinion it is a deep lack of confidence mainly among older Scots at play. They are more willing, more comfortable even, enduring whatever collapse in living standards and whatnot comes along with Brexit than ever dare to do anything more radical as an independent nation.

 

Fucking bollocks.

I'm in my late 60's and I know Granny D and quite a few other Remain/Indy supporters are knocking on a bit.

Try asking some of the many white settlers who have chosen to make Scotland their home over the years, how they voted last time and how they would vote next time. I encountered many of them when living in Inverness but never managed to find a single one that thought that Scotland could survive on her own. Ask them why they chose to relocate to Scotland the reply is invariably "To escape the rat race, mate"

The problem is they think Scotland is just a region in the north of England and that fundamentally we are all one and the same people.

I would kind of like to think that the "attack" on Anna Soubry yesterday would not have happened in Scotland, but perhaps I'm being naive.

Edited December 20, 2018 by ICTJohnboy

[ICTJohnboy]

3 minutes ago, MixuFixit said:

 

You live in England, right? Do you not notice even in the not particularly successful parts that people at least have some confidence in themselves as a group of people? Admittedly that can be self destructive as in Brexit as that confidence is misplaced. Scotland has the opposite issue in my view. Incredible potential, hamstrung by large numbers of incurious, unadventurous, blinkered people.

 

Possibly, but I do believe that confidence is misguided. I have heard many in my area opine that "England" just wants to be independent from the EU. (Many, many people here, simply do not understand the difference between England and the UK)

If I suggest that that much of Scotland also wants to be independent - but independent from England, I generally get laughed at. (I have to say "Independent from England" otherwise they don't know what I'm talking about) 

[John Lambies Doos]

Possibly, but I do believe that confidence is misguided. I have heard many in my area opine that "England" just wants to be independent from the EU. (Many, many people here, simply do not understand the difference between England and the UK)
If I suggest that that much of Scotland also wants to be independent - but independent from England, I generally get laughed at. (I have to say "Independent from England" otherwise they don't know what I'm talking about) 

And the servile craven tarts are happy with this. *Sigh*

[Granny Danger]

This may be a generalisation, but as folk get older they become more ‘conservative’ and wary about their future; often the status quo is seen as the best bet (other than when xenophobia and lies about work shy migrants  kicks in).

Personally I’m far more concerned about my children and grandchildren’s future.  Many younger folk will not forgive their parents and grandparents for their servility to England and their role in Brexit.

 

[welshbairn]

1 hour ago, Granny Danger said:

This may be a generalisation, but as folk get older they become more ‘conservative’ and wary about their future; often the status quo is seen as the best bet (other than when xenophobia and lies about work shy migrants  kicks in).

Personally I’m far more concerned about my children and grandchildren’s future.  Many younger folk will not forgive their parents and grandparents for their servility to England and their role in Brexit.

 

If old people were about keeping their pensions safe and political stability they wouldn't have voted for Brexit. I don't think rational thoughts took a role at all, it was about emotion. Sticking together to fight the Germans, indy. Repeat for Brexit. My folks were No and Remain, keep together for indy and also for Brexit. They had living memories of WW2 and parents memories of WW1 and really didn't want that shit kicking off again. 

[DeeTillEhDeh]

If old people were about keeping their pensions safe and political stability they wouldn't have voted for Brexit. I don't think rational thoughts took a role at all, it was about emotion. Sticking together to fight the Germans, indy. Repeat for Brexit. My folks were No and Remain, keep together for indy and also for Brexit. They had living memories of WW2 and parents memories of WW1 and really didn't want that shit kicking off again. 

One of the big accusations is that the group born between 1945 and 1965 are probably the most selfish generation - in some ways not surprising as they were the ones who benefited first from property ownership - the first generation who had real disposable income to spend.

It's also ironic that it's the generation that lived through the liberal 60s because now it is one of the most conservative generations.

[HTG]

1 hour ago, DeeTillEhDeh said:

One of the big accusations is that the group born between 1945 and 1965 are probably the most selfish generation - in some ways not surprising as they were the ones who benefited first from property ownership - the first generation who had real disposable income to spend.

It's also ironic that it's the generation that lived through the liberal 60s because now it is one of the most conservative generations.

That's not really the case though. If that's the level of generalisation then the window is really 1945 - 1950. If you were born after 1960, you may have lived through the liberal 60s but at under 10 you were hardly likely to be taking part.  3 day week, winter of discontent, glam rock and punk were influencers. 

[Loondave1]

That's not really the case though. If that's the level of generalisation then the window is really 1945 - 1950. If you were born after 1960, you may have lived through the liberal 60s but at under 10 you were hardly likely to be taking part.  3 day week, winter of discontent, glam rock and punk were influencers. 

I was born in 62 and I think the idea of the liberal swinging 60s is a bit exaggerated. I have no recollection of hippys or free love in Forfar but I do remember sitting by candlelight,unemptied bins and punk after that. Think I missed out on the best bits to be honest.

[topcat(The most tip top)]

One of the big accusations is that the group born between 1945 and 1965 are probably the most selfish generation - in some ways not surprising as they were the ones who benefited first from property ownership - the first generation who had real disposable income to spend.

 

It's also ironic that it's the generation that lived through the liberal 60s because now it is one of the most conservative generations.

 

 

Isn’t their reputation for being “liberal” relative to previous decades?

 

It’s not as after one generation that grew up with Hendrix and the Beatles the following generations went back to George Formby and Gracie Fields

[AyrExile]

17 hours ago, MixuFixit said:

 

That's an ugly term teuchters could do with putting in a box.

I would agree rUK migrants to Scotland do tend to be more strongly unionist, I'm not sure how much they count for votes wise compared to 50+ Scots. I'd assume the latter significantly outnumber the former but I'm happy to be corrected on that.

You live in England, right? Do you not notice even in the not particularly successful parts that people at least have some confidence in themselves as a group of people? Admittedly that can be self destructive as in Brexit as that confidence is misplaced. Scotland has the opposite issue in my view. Incredible potential, hamstrung by large numbers of incurious, unadventurous, blinkered people.

 

Those people you are slating got it spot on the last time. All the projections in the white paper were followed by an unforeseen collapse in the oil price meaning day one of any new Scotland would have been a major challenge. I am not saying things can’t be different in the future or a different plan might not have worked last time. Maybe the old people just need more facts on how things add up as they arent gamblers or follow a cult like yourself. Seems to be still a demand for Indy ref 2 on here but have any of the shortcomings from the last time been answered yet? Brexit is a shit show and will throw up opportunities but also many more questions for any future referendums that happen

[HTG]

See people that get upset over the use of "craven" or "servile", they might reasonably consider how they throw around the word "cult". 

Folk that use "cult" are generally arseholes of the highest order and most likely to fit perfectly to a description of craven and servile.