When will indyref2 happen?

[Antlion]

1 minute ago, The_Kincardine said:

Ah go on then.  Which aspect of democracy have I traduced?

The settled desire of the Irish for independence, for one. I mean, wanting that to be overridden and the republic forcibly returned to UK rule is traducing more than democracy - it’s an attack on sanity.

[SandyCromarty]

10 hours ago, The_Kincardine said:

Ah go on then.  Which aspect of democracy have I traduced?

There's a part of me that feels empathy for the situation K finds himself in.

To explain, from his posts he has spent the majority of his adult life in england and I'm sure that that he nearly became accepted as one of them in his beloved united kingdom even though he was quietly regarded as a foreigner, like I say he almost made it.

And then disaster struck! the Nationalists, Nicola and Independence reared it's head and his daily mail and other liitle englander papers started to print nasty scare stories about the pesky Nats and the mood changed to animosity against the Scots colonists daring to have a voice

So now he's back as a Sweaty Sock Jock where neighbours and friends question his loyalty and standing on the question of allegiance to england and where he's treated with suspicion.

So you can see the situation he is in and why he comes on here to vent his fury at the Nats by putting him in this mess.

[Antlion]

40 minutes ago, SandyCromarty said:

 

So now he's back as a Sweaty Sock Jock where neighbours and friends question his loyalty and standing on the question of allegiance to england and where he's treated with suspicion.

 

You are the living end.

[Aufc]

I voted no last time and have been leaning towards yes should it ever come around again. However, been getting more and more frustrated with the SNP lately (may have noticed a few posts along these lines). As much as people say “a vote for yes is not a vote for the SNP”, they will be the people who will be negotiating scotlands starting point as an independent country so it’s quite a big deal.  To be honest, I’ve become completely disillusioned with politics in general in this country. Every party is absolutely useless so feel like just not voting for anything

[Antlion]

4 hours ago, Aufc said:

I voted no last time and have been leaning towards yes should it ever come around again. However, been getting more and more frustrated with the SNP lately (may have noticed a few posts along these lines). As much as people say “a vote for yes is not a vote for the SNP”, they will be the people who will be negotiating scotlands starting point as an independent country so it’s quite a big deal.  To be honest, I’ve become completely disillusioned with politics in general in this country. Every party is absolutely useless so feel like just not voting for anything

And the flip-side of this is that the Tories in Westminster must fill you with confidence for their ongoing handling and planning of the UK. Otherwise, if as you say we’re the reducing this to the parties’ in charge of the immediate future, you can’t vote either way.

[HTG]

4 hours ago, Aufc said:

I voted no last time and have been leaning towards yes should it ever come around again. However, been getting more and more frustrated with the SNP lately (may have noticed a few posts along these lines). As much as people say “a vote for yes is not a vote for the SNP”, they will be the people who will be negotiating scotlands starting point as an independent country so it’s quite a big deal.  To be honest, I’ve become completely disillusioned with politics in general in this country. Every party is absolutely useless so feel like just not voting for anything

That's the spirit. Leave it to the likes of Dawsons Park Boy to vote in the sort of country he and his ilk want.  

[alta-pete]

I hear next months ‘de facto referendum’ conference is now binned? 

[Lyle Lanley]

2 minutes ago, alta-pete said:

I hear next months ‘de facto referendum’ conference is now binned? 

It has. 
 

The de facto referendum isn’t happening anytime soon isn’t it.

[betting competition]

Some headline from the times today. Someone getting sacked?

[oldbitterandgrumpy]

1 hour ago, betting competition said:

Some headline from the times today. Someone getting sacked?

Someone at the Times thought,  ‘yeah, that’s a classy, tasteful front page. Nothing offensive here’.

[git-intae-thum]

Good...a de facto referendum needs to be done at the Holyrood election.

[DrewDon]

What a country. 

[Wingman]

The next few weeks will be a good time for the SNP to showcase their policies during the leadership campaign.

They will have the full attention of the media and seldom will they be so much in the spotlight.

Interesting times ahead.

[Scary Bear]

8 hours ago, betting competition said:

Some headline from the times today. Someone getting sacked?

That is unfortunate positioning there.

[Inanimate Carbon Rod]

15 minutes ago, DrewDon said:

What a country. 

Biggest shower of nearly men brave heart ‘tm Daily Record’ bedwetters on the fucking planet. 

[renton]

1 hour ago, git-intae-thum said:

Good...a de facto referendum needs to be done at the Holyrood election.

I dunno, I think it's easier to frame in a WM election. Yes, you have the friendlier franchise at Holyrood, but for me - to frame it as a de facto referendum you should only be standing on one policy: Independence. Otherwise there will always be that whole did you vote for Indy, or for their broadband in rural schools policy.

If you do that, your manifesto should be a sinple A5 card that says: Should Scotland be an Independent country. You should get the Greens to do the same. Ignore any and all other considerations and attempts by the Unionist side to make it about other issues. Hell, even get your party name on the ballot changed to include some semblance of the question.

Problem for me is that at Holyrood, you might lose with 48% of the vote and then still be expected to govern for 5 years with hee haw in the way of mandate for any domestic policy you might want. At least at WM, the SNP is not expected to have any traction on policy. They are, to soem extent, expendable in a way the Holyrood party are not.

Another consideration for me would be that, at a Holyrood election, with no other skin in the game, you get love bombed by WM, told you'll get all kinds of new devo powers, etc. At a WM election when they are all desperate for their own position you get fire bombed as each party positions itself on how to be a more effective hammer of the rebellious Scots based on how Colonel Mathers-Smith (retd.) Of Turnbridge Wells will vote. Takes the warm fuzzy edge of Unionist opposition.

So for me, I think on balance the WM election option is better.

[sophia]

13 hours ago, betting competition said:

Some headline from the times today. Someone getting sacked?

I'm not so sure. 

The Times of London is a shadow of what it once purported to be and it's not even worth a free read these days.

[git-intae-thum]

5 hours ago, renton said:

I dunno, I think it's easier to frame in a WM election. Yes, you have the friendlier franchise at Holyrood, but for me - to frame it as a de facto referendum you should only be standing on one policy: Independence. Otherwise there will always be that whole did you vote for Indy, or for their broadband in rural schools policy.

If you do that, your manifesto should be a sinple A5 card that says: Should Scotland be an Independent country. You should get the Greens to do the same. Ignore any and all other considerations and attempts by the Unionist side to make it about other issues. Hell, even get your party name on the ballot changed to include some semblance of the question.

Problem for me is that at Holyrood, you might lose with 48% of the vote and then still be expected to govern for 5 years with hee haw in the way of mandate for any domestic policy you might want. At least at WM, the SNP is not expected to have any traction on policy. They are, to soem extent, expendable in a way the Holyrood party are not.

Another consideration for me would be that, at a Holyrood election, with no other skin in the game, you get love bombed by WM, told you'll get all kinds of new devo powers, etc. At a WM election when they are all desperate for their own position you get fire bombed as each party positions itself on how to be a more effective hammer of the rebellious Scots based on how Colonel Mathers-Smith (retd.) Of Turnbridge Wells will vote. Takes the warm fuzzy edge of Unionist opposition.

So for me, I think on balance the WM election option is better.

All good points.

As you pointed out though there is a clear beneficial in terms of the electorate(16 to 18 year old, EU/ foriegn nationals etc) for using the Holyrood system. Simply...we are more likely to gain the necessary majority using a Holyrood plebiscite.

I also get the argument for the need for an existing devolved administration to frame further policy in an election manifesto if it wishes to continue as a devolved gov........but.... surely there has got to be a point where the SNP decides if it is content to be the establishment party of devolved government.....or be true to its principles and go for independence.

Maybe it needs to be made clear to the public if such a future scenario becomes necessary that in the event of them shiting the bed again they are getting stuck with a SLAB or Tory Scotgov.

Using any election as a de facto referendum is always going to be the nuclear option of last resort. Used when all other attempts to claim democratic right have been denied.

It being the nuclear option means you don't go at it half arsed.....as Sturgeons latest plan was shaping up to be.

 

[Todd_is_God]

On 16/02/2023 at 22:13, Lyle Lanley said:

It has. 

The de facto referendum isn’t happening anytime soon isn’t it.

Anyone who actually believed there would be a referendum of any kind this year is an idiot who either hasn't been paying attention to the SNP's near annual promise of "next year..." or forgot about it because they stopped it for a bit during Covid.

[Highland Capital]

Was just talking to someone there about the last referendum and the question came up about any conservatives (both big and small c) who supported Yes.  I remember Peter de Vink the former councillor in Midlothian campaigned for independence and had the largest Yes sign in Scotland on his land or something.  He was expelled from the Tories and dropped as a candidate because of his stance despite fundraising for them since the 70s. 

Tasmina Ahmed-Sheikh was another former Tory but she'd left the party years before by the time of the referendum.

Were there any others?