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When will indyref2 happen?


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Indyref2  

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45 minutes ago, Jedi said:

I'll say this for the SNP, they aren't daft.

In order to deflect from their record in government, a strategy of 'vote for us (at any election now, be it Westminster or Holyrood), and we will negotiate Independence' is a sound one. It keeps them appearing to be a 'protest' movement, rather than a party of government. It gets them out of having to answer about the NHS, Education, Social Services, the Environment, the Economy, workers pay and conditions, inequality, defence, or any number of issues, as none of it can be sorted 'without' Independence.

By doing this, they guarantee themselves 40%+ of the vote and get to keep their snouts in the trough of ministerial and MP's salaries as that is a shoe in for a majority of seats at Westminster and Holyrood. At the same time they don't really have to 'govern' Scotland, as it's all a 'waiting game'....like I said, not daft.

Interesting that “protest” is “guaranteeing 40%+” of the vote.  Almost as if there is something people want to protest about.

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1 hour ago, williemillersmoustache said:

You appear to have come into this conversation on more than one occassion now, blissfully unencumbered by the nescessary faculties to meaningfully join in. It is said that God loves a trier, but I don't.

 

14 minutes ago, edinabear said:

Sevco

Funny you should say that.  Unlike normal posters - who enjoy P&B in the round and for whom discussing football is the aim - daft @williemillersmoustachejoined up in 2012 just to post about Rangers.  By Christ has he done so!

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1 hour ago, Jedi said:

It's not a 'fine laundry list' of socialism, but in most areas-improving working rights, reversing Tory anti-trade union legislation, properly funding public services, making a serious attempt to tackle the environmental crisis with green policies, improving the rights of women subject to domestic abuse, ending the non-dom loopholes, ending the charity status of private schools, fixing childcare. it is certainly a considerable improvement on the Tories. 'Making Brexit work' again...is not 'running to the right'. They are still putting forward policies, which, I believe will benefit more people across the UK than they harm. 

975824.jpg.a761d87b21d291b8ccce2119fbb33b46.jpg

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46 minutes ago, Wee Bully said:

Interesting that “protest” is “guaranteeing 40%+” of the vote.  Almost as if there is something people want to protest about.

It certainly ain't the record of the SNP in government they want to 'protest about'. That's for sure. Oh, you mean the SNP's current 'mandate' based on the most seats but certainly not over 50% of the vote.

Speaking of democracy..why is it okay for the Greens to be part of the government of Scotland when around 6% of the electorate voted for them? Or is it that you 'only get the government you vote for' as long as it's an SNP/Green (with the latter's tiny vote share) one?

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2 minutes ago, Jedi said:

Speaking of democracy..why is it okay for the Greens to be part of the government of Scotland when around 6% of the electorate voted for them? Or is it that you 'only get the government you vote for' as long as it's an SNP/Green (with the latter's tiny vote share) one?

Because apparently the Labour Party set up the Scottish Parliament to be one of coalitions (in order to kill the SNP stone dead).

Any grouping of parties could have power.  Provided of course between them they have over 50% of the seats.  An example would be the 2 Lab/Lib coalitions in the first 2 terms.

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In the 2019 GE 47% of people voted for parties which either outright opposed Brexit, or were calling for a 2nd Referendum. That outpolled the Tories 43% overall. 

Any calls for a 2nd Referendum on Brexit have now gone however. Even the Liberals have changed course from 'reverse it completely' at the GE, to 'possibly re-joining the single market'.  The SNP, as far as I am aware are not calling for a 2nd Ref on Europe now. (rather a policy of re-joining 'at some point, 'if' Independent'. The point is that all sides have moved on from trying to re-run the 2016 vote,...despite more people voting for 2nd Ref/reverse etc even in 2019 than the hard Tory Brexit we ended up with.

Why then, is every upcoming election in Scotland, a re-run of 2014? Whether the GE de-facto Ref, the attempt to get the Supreme Court to pass a Ref being held, or presumably if the 2024 de-facto Ref fails, it simply rolls onto the next Holyrood election.

More people in polling now (54%) think that it was 'wrong' to Leave the EU. That is a comfortably higher figure than support for Independence which continues to hover at between 43-48%. Yet, no calls for a second EU poll.

Is it simply because for the SNP to retain power at Holyrood, or hold the most Scottish seats at Westminster, that they need to keep Independence as a 'live' issue, and will no doubt do so for the next few years?

They do have other options, such as calling for FFA for Scotland, and trying to put that to a vote (which may well win), or indeed push for further powers to be devolved. Rather, 'government' of Scotland will be effectively suspended for the next couple of years until the GE when we get the result of the de-facto Ref.

 

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It's not a 'fine laundry list' of socialism, but in most areas-improving working rights, reversing Tory anti-trade union legislation, properly funding public services, making a serious attempt to tackle the environmental crisis with green policies, improving the rights of women subject to domestic abuse, ending the non-dom loopholes, ending the charity status of private schools, fixing childcare. it is certainly a considerable improvement on the Tories. 'Making Brexit work' again...is not 'running to the right'. They are still putting forward policies, which, I believe will benefit more people across the UK than they harm. 
Meanwhile the SNP get out clause continues to be that 'we can't do anything' in Scotland until we are Independent, we can't address public sector pay, we can't reverse the 4000 hospital beds we have cut over the past few years, or restore the thousands of college places we have cut, or address the sharp rise in inequality in Scotland. You can't ask us about our 15 year record in govt because our hands are entirely tied. What do you expect us to do?
 
gullible

/ˈɡʌləb(ə)l/

adjective

easily persuaded to believe something; credulous

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1 minute ago, DeeTillEhDeh said:

gullible

/ˈɡʌləb(ə)l/

adjective

easily persuaded to believe something; credulous
 

I know..The SNP don't ever suggest 'there is nothing we can do' in government..you are right.

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15 hours ago, edinabear said:

Blackford and his  supporters harassed Kennedy in Parliament, in his office, his home and by email, phone calls and letter. Horrible behaviour but unsurprising from Scottish Nationalists. 

Define harassed?

I harass my local MP, MSP etc all the time when there is an issue I need resolved. It's kinda their job.

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Jedi, old boy. I find your posts a little long and rambling so rarely get to the end of them, No offence.

 

Could you tell me - concisely, please - why Labour cooncillors in Scotland are quite happy to go into coalition with the Tories they pretend to hate?

 

Genuine query. My Scottish Labour chums just roll their eyes when I ask.

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1 hour ago, KirkieRR said:

Jedi, old boy. I find your posts a little long and rambling so rarely get to the end of them, No offence.

 

Could you tell me - concisely, please - why Labour cooncillors in Scotland are quite happy to go into coalition with the Tories they pretend to hate?

 

Genuine query. My Scottish Labour chums just roll their eyes when I ask.

Could it be 'realpolitik? In the same way Alex Salmond regularly worked with the Tories between 2007-11 to 'get things done'..same idea..either have a roadblock or get some policies passed. 

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1 hour ago, KirkieRR said:

Jedi, old boy. I find your posts a little long and rambling so rarely get to the end of them, No offence.

 

Could you tell me - concisely, please - why Labour cooncillors in Scotland are quite happy to go into coalition with the Tories they pretend to hate?

 

Genuine query. My Scottish Labour chums just roll their eyes when I ask.

I'm neither Jedi nor a Labour supporter, but if I had to guess, it might be that a significant part of it would be that London Labour fear being slaughtered by the Tory supporting media for them "getting into bed" with the SNP. 

Edited by Salt n Vinegar
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49 minutes ago, Jedi said:

Could it be 'realpolitik? In the same way Alex Salmond regularly worked with the Tories between 2007-11 to 'get things done'..same idea..either have a roadblock or get some policies passed. 

This would only be true if there was no way to form a working majority without tory support so not applicable if in fact this "realpolitik" was really just a way to exclude the largest party from office.

45 minutes ago, Salt n Vinegar said:

I'm neither Jedi nor a Labour supporter, but if I had to guess, it might be that a significant part of it would be that London Labour fear being slaughtered by the Tory supporting media for them "getting into bed" with the SNP. 

This, but why are the Labour /left not slaughtering them for rutting like beasts with their ideological opposites*

 

*The real reason is that in terms of ideology and policy they are closer to the Tories than the SNP. And you could still use the residual SLab seethe generated from punting these grasping theiving wankers into touch in 2015 and out of office across Scottish councils to power the large hadron collider. For 100 years. 

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2 hours ago, Jedi said:

Could it be 'realpolitik? In the same way Alex Salmond regularly worked with the Tories between 2007-11 to 'get things done'..same idea..either have a roadblock or get some policies passed. 

2007-11 Was not Coalition as you well know, although trying to make the comparison is cheap whataboutery.

 

2 hours ago, Salt n Vinegar said:

London Labour fear being slaughtered by the Tory supporting media for them "getting into bed" with the SNP. 

London Labour are absurdly terrified by the rightwing media. I sometimes think they are the only people who take the Daily Mail seriously. I've heard umpteen Labourites seriously suggesting that's why they can't suggest reversing Brexit. 'The rightwing media would slaughter us'.

 

The thing is, the rightwing media would slaughter them whatever. Fortunately the print media have very little influence these days. Whatever you think of the SNP, they have almost no media support at all (The National? Don't make me laff) but keep winning. Perhaps if Labour talked to them they might find out how to win despite the media - and in any case dahn saff they have the Mirror and the Graunbore batting for them.

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I haven't worked out how to quote multiple posts, so this is a question for Granny, Welshbairn and HighlandMagar - aside from the divisiveness one of you mentioned (which I can see) what is so unpalatable about Jo Cherry as SNP leader? I'm not being chippy, I'm genuinely interested. 

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