When will indyref2 happen?

[Fullerene]

5 minutes ago, PossilYM said:

 

Has any party in living memory got 50 +1 % of the vote at a Westminster general election?

 

Not a valid comparison.  There are multiple parties to choose from as opposed to a binary question.

[PossilYM]

1 minute ago, Fullerene said:

Not a valid comparison.  There are multiple parties to choose from as opposed to a binary question.

Has anybody told Nicola?

[Double Jack D]

44 minutes ago, Lex said:

It's not an English parliament.

I'm aware of that, and it has no bearing on the point. Votes from other nations within the UK parliament being used to keep Scotland within the union is not sustainable for UK democracy. 

[Cowden Cowboy]

5 minutes ago, Double Jack D said:

I'm aware of that, and it has no bearing on the point. Votes from other nations within the UK parliament being used to keep Scotland within the union is not sustainable for UK democracy. 

It is unless there was a much larger majority strongly in favour of independence.  That isn’t the case.  The vast majority of Scots aren’t seething about this, taking to the streets rather they have other issues in their lives to deal with 

[PossilYM]

22 minutes ago, Cowden Cowboy said:

It is unless there was a much larger majority strongly in favour of independence.  That isn’t the case.  The vast majority of Scots aren’t seething about this, taking to the streets rather they have other issues in their lives to deal with 

Funnily enough i don't remember family members or workmates holding any particular view on Brexit.

First time it got mentioned was the day after the Brexit vote.

[Cowden Cowboy]

3 minutes ago, PossilYM said:

Funnily enough i don't remember family members or workmates holding any particular view on Brexit.

First time it got mentioned was the day after the Brexit vote.

Yes a 60% threshold would have prevented a stupid decision 

[Antlion]

26 minutes ago, Cowden Cowboy said:

It is unless there was a much larger majority strongly in favour of independence.  That isn’t the case.  The vast majority of Scots aren’t seething about this, taking to the streets rather they have other issues in their lives to deal with 

Every single Scottish resident could be in favour of independence. We’ve been told there is no legal mechanism by which we can achieve it other than the UK Government sitting in the English Parliament allowing it. Are you seriously trying to now suggest that in the 2020s UK, our only recourse would be to “take to the streets”? What kind of sham of a democracy is it you’re suggesting the UK is, here, and what is it that makes it so attractive to you?

[Antlion]

3 minutes ago, Cowden Cowboy said:

Yes a 60% threshold would have prevented a stupid decision 

A glorious slogan of our sunny future within ZombieUK:

”Let’s live by England and Wales’s stupid decisions. Forever.”

It has the advantage of being accurate, at least.

[Cowden Cowboy]

1 minute ago, Antlion said:

Every single Scottish resident could be in favour of independence. We’ve been told there is no legal mechanism by which we can achieve it other than the UK Government sitting in the English Parliament allowing it. Are you seriously trying to now suggest that in the 2020s UK, our only recourse would be to “take to the streets”? What kind of sham of a democracy is it you’re suggesting the UK is, here, and what is it that makes it so attractive to you?

No I didn’t say that’s the only recourse rather you need to persuade the UK parliament by showing clearly what the true sentiment is and its strength.  At the moment it’s a 50/50 with probably a silent majority in Scotland not that fussed one way or the other.  Not everybody is a fervent unionist or Nat.  That is like assuming right wingers and left wingers with their extreme views actually represent the majority.  Instead UK politics has largely converged upon the middle ground 

[PossilYM]

9 minutes ago, Cowden Cowboy said:

Yes a 60% threshold would have prevented a stupid decision 

And stopped Thatcherism 

[Granny Danger]

There are obvious trolls on here on the NO side and there are idiots too, but most worryingly amongst them there are Scots who genuinely believe that their fellow Scots should be denied the opportunity to decide their future.

I really struggle to understand that mindset.

[williemillersmoustache]

"Silent majority" is just code for "imaginary voters upon which my argument depends."

Carry on. 

[scottsdad]

3 minutes ago, Granny Danger said:

There are obvious trolls on here on the NO side and there are idiots too, but most worryingly amongst them there are Scots who genuinely believe that their fellow Scots should be denied the opportunity to decide their future.

I really struggle to understand that mindset.

I absolutely believe Scotland should decide its own future. The UK parliament should allow indyref 2 because the will of the Scottish people is clear on this.

I do not accept any "de facto referendum" argument at a general election however.

[Antlion]

5 minutes ago, Cowden Cowboy said:

No I didn’t say that’s the only recourse rather you need to persuade the UK parliament by showing clearly what the true sentiment is and its strength.  At the moment it’s a 50/50 with probably a silent majority in Scotland not that fussed one way or the other.  Not everybody is a fervent unionist or Nat.  That is like assuming right wingers and left wingers with their extreme views actually represent the majority.  Instead UK politics has largely converged upon the middle ground 

Where in the Supreme Court’s recognition of the position, or in any part of the UK’s constitution, is a single word said about us having any ability or legal mechanism to “persuade” the UK government by “showing what the true sentiment is and its strength”? What form does this “persuasion” take? We’ve established it’s not via the ballot box. What you’re suggesting here sounds a lot like hoping the issue will go away by simply continuing to demand higher and higher bars whilst refusing to recognise election results.

You’re making the UK seem like an imperious overlord, which needs to be convinced to grant things on a whim by … what? Opinion polls set at arbitrary numbers over unknown periods of time? Rattling sabres? When it feels like it? What you’re not suggesting it is is a normal or even an acceptable democracy.

And you’re probably right.

[williemillersmoustache]

7 minutes ago, scottsdad said:

I absolutely believe Scotland should decide its own future. The UK parliament should allow indyref 2 because the will of the Scottish people is clear on this.

I do not accept any "de facto referendum" argument at a general election however.

I sympathise with this view, it's totally ridiculous to use a multiparty vote to decide a single binary choice but you have to piss with the cock you've got. 

I heard loads of the tory and labour talking heads on Wednesday saying it's not up to the SNP to decide what the election is about but the people.  Weird how nobody asked any of these characters, what if they decide to make it about independence? 

[scottsdad]

9 minutes ago, williemillersmoustache said:

I sympathise with this view, it's totally ridiculous to use a multiparty vote to decide a single binary choice but you have to piss with the cock you've got. 

I heard loads of the tory and labour talking heads on Wednesday saying it's not up to the SNP to decide what the election is about but the people.  Weird how nobody asked any of these characters, what if they decide to make it about independence? 

I get it, I really do. But unless the unionist parties play ball and agree, and also go with one-liner manifestos, then it isn't a de facto referendum.

I genuinely don't know where the independence movement goes from here. 2014 spooked the establishment so much that it would take a Liz Truss style kamikaze PM to agree to another Section 30 order. I can't see any democratic way of getting this unless we get crazy pro-independence numbers at election (not hovering around the 50% mark but far higher).

[williemillersmoustache]

1 minute ago, scottsdad said:

I get it, I really do. But unless the unionist parties play ball and agree, and also go with one-liner manifestos, then it isn't a de facto referendum.

I genuinely don't know where the independence movement goes from here. 2014 spooked the establishment so much that it would take a Liz Truss style kamikaze PM to agree to another Section 30 order. I can't see any democratic way of getting this unless we get crazy pro-independence numbers at election (not hovering around the 50% mark but far higher).

I think we're back to @Paco's grim but pretty spot on commnent that it will have to hinge upon a fluke of parliamentary arithmetic.

In the meantime there's nothing else to do but keep going. Its not like any other party are offering anything that might tempt the people who deserted them in favour of the SNP. 

Vote for us for something shite because we're using votes elsewhere to stop you from voting for something better, isn't a good enough reason to vote for something shite. 

[Granny Danger]

38 minutes ago, scottsdad said:

I absolutely believe Scotland should decide its own future. The UK parliament should allow indyref 2 because the will of the Scottish people is clear on this.

I do not accept any "de facto referendum" argument at a general election however.

So what’s your solution?

[scottsdad]

6 minutes ago, Granny Danger said:

So what’s your solution?

I don't have one. As I said a couple of posts back I genuinely don't know where the independence movement goes from here.

[Wee Bully]

7 minutes ago, Granny Danger said:

So what’s your solution?

Absolutely.  This is Plan C

Plan A - Westminster allows s30 order.  Answer No

Plan B - can Holyrood legislate for a referendum?  Answer No.

Plan C - only lever left seems to be using another election as a de facto referendum.

 

If there is a Plan D, I’m all ears.