When will indyref2 happen?

[KirkieRR]

17 minutes ago, Antlion said:

I’m not sure “look how poor and dependent we are after centuries of UK rule” is quite the advertisement for UK rule people want it to be.

In his car-crash BBC Scotland interview, Sirkier 'Make Brexit Work' Starmer talked some mince about the benefits that we get by being a union. He didn't specify but I assume he was meaning stuff like Tory governments, Brexit, Johnson, Truss etc.

[DiegoDiego]

Well Brexit has surely shown the harm that separating from a union can do? I am genuinely undecided on the whole thing. On one side, the tories are a disgrace but should surely get voted out in the next election. The yes side havent made a proper financial case. The SNP have done a lot of good but they have also made a total arse of some of the stuff and some of the stuff that Nicola Sturgeon has done makes me question what she would be like if she had complete control over everything. 

Anyone deciding how to vote on independence because of whoever happens to be in power at Westminster or Holyrood at that moment is incredibly short sighted.

[Joey Jo Jo Junior Shabadoo]

1 hour ago, Aufc said:

Well Brexit has surely shown the harm that separating from a union can do? I am genuinely undecided on the whole thing. On one side, the tories are a disgrace but should surely get voted out in the next election. The yes side havent made a proper financial case. The SNP have done a lot of good but they have also made a total arse of some of the stuff and some of the stuff that Nicola Sturgeon has done makes me question what she would be like if she had complete control over everything. 

Maybe we could design a system where the Executive doesn't get absolute power with 43% of the vote?

[Antlion]

19 minutes ago, KirkieRR said:

In his car-crash BBC Scotland interview, Sirkier 'Make Brexit Work' Starmer talked some mince about the benefits that we get by being a union. He didn't specify but I assume he was meaning stuff like Tory governments, Brexit, Johnson, Truss etc.

Presumably he meant the EU. The UK, as proven yesterday, is anything but a union - and as your list proves, its benefits are anything but benefits.

[Jeff Venom]

Has anyone ever heard from a unionist, in government or otherwise, the specific benefits the rUK get from being in union with Scotland?

[Johnny Martin]

23 hours ago, Double Jack D said:

Not sure it can be considered a great result if a country cannot establish its own independence via a democratic event contained within its own borders.

History has shown that you cannot suppress democracy without consequences, I sincerely hope we can ensure the future path of our country, both UK and Scotland, can keep us on a democratic path that resolves this.

The status quo isn't tenable.

 

Scotland can establish it's independence if it's people want it.

Democracy is being upheld, not suppressed.  We're only 8 years after the last referendum, and there's nothing to suggest any sustained majority to split up the country, but plenty evidence of the contrary.

The only ones trying to suppress democracy are those who want to rerun a referendum on a settled issue.

[Johnny Martin]

23 hours ago, git-intae-thum said:

3. UK nationalists will now have to define an alternative democratic route for the people of Scotland to express their will.

It has already been expressed.

[jakedee]

Well Brexit has surely shown the harm that separating from a union can do? I am genuinely undecided on the whole thing. On one side, the tories are a disgrace but should surely get voted out in the next election. The yes side havent made a proper financial case. The SNP have done a lot of good but they have also made a total arse of some of the stuff and some of the stuff that Nicola Sturgeon has done makes me question what she would be like if she had complete control over everything. 

The harm was done by the UK Govt. insisting on unachievable(in the case of NI),and self harming (in the case of leaving the single market) "red lines".
Completely self inflicted "harm".

[Double Jack D]

1 minute ago, Johnny Martin said:

 

Scotland can establish it's independence if it's people want it.

Democracy is being upheld, not suppressed.  We're only 8 years after the last referendum, and there's nothing to suggest any sustained majority to split up the country, but plenty evidence of the contrary.

The only ones trying to suppress democracy are those who want to rerun a referendum on a settled issue.

No, it really can't unless the rest of the UK allow it. Have you not been paying attention?

I agree that we had our chance in 2014 and chose to decline it. I also agree that, ordinarily, 8 years isn't a lengthy enough period in which to revisit it. However, there has been substantial change in the UK situation over that time that what we all voted for in 2014 has shifted so much that a new assessment of Scottish opinion would be valid.

That and the fact that we are effectively in an unsolvable constitutional log jam that something has to give, for the UK as a whole. 

The status quo isn't tenable and we're all going to suffer for as long as the powers that be try and maintain it.

[jakedee]

 
Scotland can establish it's independence if it's people want it.
Democracy is being upheld, not suppressed.  We're only 8 years after the last referendum, and there's nothing to suggest any sustained majority to split up the country, but plenty evidence of the contrary.
The only ones trying to suppress democracy are those who want to rerun a referendum on a settled issue.

It's people want it

[Guest Jedi]

15 hours ago, lichtgilphead said:

 

I see that Jedi is totally misrepresenting the latest Ipsos poll. He's got the question wrong and is reporting the result as if the "don't knows" and the "don't minds" would vote against leaving.

When the undecided are stripped out, Indy is 8 percentage points ahead.

A typical Labour ploy - who remembers 1979 when the dead were counted as voting "no"?

 

Don't think you really want to go to 1979, and the SNP putting Thatcher into power.....not the last time they would cosy up to them of course.

Yellow Tories then, and Yellow Tories now (economically) 

[git-intae-thum]

12 minutes ago, Johnny Martin said:

It has already been expressed.

Really. How so?

[Aufc]

1 hour ago, renton said:

Independence is not about Nicola Sturgeon or the SNP. You are not voting for a 5 year programme of government.

Correct. However, its hard to present that to a lot of people. At the end of the day, if Scotland becomes independent then the SNP are going to be the ones leading us through the initial stages (how long that period is i am not sure) which will be the hardest. 

1 hour ago, williemillersmoustache said:

Taps link to an article from the Indy loving BBC. 

I agree with this. However, because the SNP have not presented an alternative financial model then its the only thing people have. Im not saying any financial report is going to be 100% accurate but they need to, at least, present something. 

[Colkitto]

Must admit when I started this thread in 2015 I never envisaged the UK Gov blocking a referendum after the Scottish parliament voted in a majority of MSP's in favour of holding one. 

[Aufc]

28 minutes ago, jakedee said:

The harm was done by the UK Govt. insisting on unachievable(in the case of NI),and self harming (in the case of leaving the single market) "red lines".
Completely self inflicted "harm".

Whilst i agree with this, surely its going to be the exact same or even worse with the break up of Scotland and england? Scotland will want to have their cake and eat whilst the rest of the UK will want to make it as hard as possible to discourage the likes of Wales from doing it. It is the exact same

[lichtgilphead]

22 minutes ago, Jedi said:

Don't think you really want to go to 1979, and the SNP putting Thatcher into power.....not the last time they would cosy up to them of course.

Yellow Tories then, and Yellow Tories now (economically) 

How exactly did the SNP put Thatcher into power? 311 MP's (including 13 liberals) had no confidence in Jim Callaghan's government. The SNP only had 11 MP's at the time. Incidentally, if all the Labour MP's had voted, Callaghan would have survived on the speaker's casting vote.

It's not the SNP's fault that Labour were unelectable at the subsequent election.

Anyhow, would you have confidence in a Government that gerrymandered a referendum by allowing the dead to vote?

[Guest Jedi]

3 minutes ago, Aufc said:

Correct. However, its hard to present that to a lot of people. At the end of the day, if Scotland becomes independent then the SNP are going to be the ones leading us through the initial stages (how long that period is i am not sure) which will be the hardest. 

Except again, with 45% plus of the vote tied up, and having just 'delivered' Independence, it is very much a programme for '5 years of government' in an Independent Scotland (as proposed by the SNP) which will be delivered by that first parliament....other parties wouldn't get a look in. In a Scottish GE, 45% plus, as it does now, guarantees a high majority of seats. Of course they would handle negotiations, as the sitting Scottish govt during an interim period prior to 'Independence Day'.

The idea of the SNP not being in power anytime soon, in an Independent Scotland, is, I still think, fanciful. 

Why would SNP voters suddenly 'switch' to Labour, Tories, Liberals, Greens (or whatever other 'new' parties might be set up)?

In the same way that Labour dominated Scottish politics for the best part of 50 years, the SNP on achieving Independence would already have been in power for 20 years, (assuming that they win over 50% in the de facto GE in 2024 and get Independence, plus the negotiation period).....add at least a further 2 terms of office in the newly Independent country in there, and they will be up to 30 plus years in power.

[DrewDon]

32 minutes ago, Jedi said:

Don't think you really want to go to 1979, and the SNP putting Thatcher into power.....not the last time they would cosy up to them of course.

Yellow Tories then, and Yellow Tories now (economically) 

Did this happen before or after you became a candidate, election agent and everything else you apparently were for the SNP?

[williemillersmoustache]

3 minutes ago, DrewDon said:

Did this happen before or after you became a candidate, election agent and everything else you apparently were for the SNP?

 

[Guest Jedi]

2 minutes ago, lichtgilphead said:

How exactly did the SNP put Thatcher into power? 311 MP's (including 13 liberals) had no confidence in Jim Callaghan's government. The SNP only had 11 MP's at the time. Incidentally, if all the Labour MP's had voted, Callaghan would have survived on the speaker's casting vote.

It's not the SNP's fault that Labour were unelectable at the subsequent election.

Anyhow, would you have confidence in a Government that gerrymandered a referendum by allowing the dead to vote?

Their 'preference' was still for Thatcher, just as Alex Salmond was more than happy to enjoy a close working relationship with Annabel Gouldie between 2007-11. The inconvenient truth is that the SNP have been happy to work with the Tories when it suited their agenda. Also on Brexit, they abstained on Ken Clarke's proposal for a much softer deal which would have meant staying in the Single Market, and that was only defeated by 6 votes.