When will indyref2 happen?

[Guest Jedi]

Teachers on strike, nurses on strike, binmen on strike (recently) postal workers on strike, rail workers on strike (entirely 'down' to Westminster), we are told the SG has 'no' responsibility for any of these, and no capacity to negotiate or reach pay agreements as Westminster (again) won't give them the funding to do so.

NHS Scotland waiting lists and waiting times going up, and by the admission of the Health Minister, facing their toughest winter in living memory. 

However, the debate in Scottish politics will be dominated by talk of tactics over the next GE now. Each of these other issues will be sidelined, (or continue to rest 'entirely' at Westminster's door) over the coming months.

Meantime, 45% backing still in the bag for the SNP.  (and Independence polling at around the same in the meantime).

Does the Scot govt have a responsibility in the interim to address the situation in the public sector in Scotland over pay and conditions, try to find solutions to NHS funding and delivery, and continue to protect the people of Scotland in the midst of a Cost of Living crisis, or if not, how does it go about pushing the 40-45% up over 50%?

 

[Dan Steele]

Is there a re-writing of history going on here? Are the 1707 Acts of Union being reshaped as an Act of Nation?

[D Angelo Barksdale]

13 minutes ago, Clown Job said:

 

"It may be Independence for thee, but first you must answer these riddles three"

[renton]

13 minutes ago, Jedi said:

 

Meantime, 45% backing still in the bag for the SNP.  (and Independence polling at around the same in the meantime).

 

 

Small point perhaps but the last 5 "standard" polls (I.e. those using the standard question and 1,000 sample size) showed the Yes vote at 49, 49, 49, 50, 49

The last actual poll was that big (2000 sample size) ipsos Mori poll with the non standard question that showed Yes at 55%

[Antlion]

20 minutes ago, TapothehullDee said:

Sturgeon says she respects the courts decision, then says she will find another way around it.  Wow. It's great watching these rabid Nats chewing their fists. 

You don’t really understand what the court “decided” do you?

[Todd_is_God]

2 hours ago, Meeniedee said:

unless your a rabid unionist or a rangers fan surely todays verdict is another nail in the coffin of this unequal union

I suspect this thread is a bit of an echo chamber tbh.

There are, of course, groups of people strongly in favour of independence, and the groups you highlight that are staunchly against it, but in the middle there is a large group of people who really aren't that arsed either way. They are happy with their life and lifestyle currently, and will feel they have no reason to campaign for the type of material change that may or may not change that and/or may not see any noticeable benefits within the remainder of their lifetime.

In short, the majority will simply shrug their shoulders at the verdict and get on with their lives.

[Dundee Hibernian]

Spent time reading through the comments made following the Supreme Court ruling, but I'm stuck on one point. The ruling referred to the UK Constitution, and I recall it being mentioned by John Reed a few times.

And yet, there is no concrete UK Constitution as far as I can make out. There is a UK Constitutional Law Association, but as far as I can determine, some of the discussions in that group, and decisions taken such as today's, can be based on unwritten laws as well as well established legislation.

Quebec indeed.

[Thistle_do_nicely]

58 minutes ago, Clown Job said:

 

 

43 minutes ago, Stringer Bell said:

"It may be Independence for thee, but first you must answer these riddles three"

"If the Union ye wish to flee

Go to the Supreme Court must ye

To overcome Keir Starmer's curse

Simply quote a Simpson's verse"

[101]

1 hour ago, Clown Job said:

 

Rename everyone in Scotland Keith Starmer by deed poll. 

[Benjamin_Nevis]

7 hours ago, TapothehullDee said:

Correct decision, the majority of Scots don't want to waste £20 million dividing the country again. We can't have the tail wagging the dog. Spend it on something useful, like keeping old people warm or for kids. 

 

7 hours ago, TapothehullDee said:

Buy a caravan. 

 

7 hours ago, TapothehullDee said:

Did it 8 years ago, were 41 years in EU without a say. Another 33 years to next Scottish neverendum. 

 

6 hours ago, TapothehullDee said:

An in out vote, like the lovers of the 2014 vote want again. We were 41 years in the EU without an in- out vote. 

 

5 hours ago, TapothehullDee said:

It is because the EU hates democracy, overturns referenda and makes countries vote again. Its the most undemocratic cleak on the planet. 

 

2 hours ago, TapothehullDee said:

There is more chance of the Titanic sailing into New York than this ludicrous referendum happening and the racist cult that is the SNP actually winning it. The ship has sailed.  It sank in 2014. Next. 

 

2 hours ago, TapothehullDee said:

Only the anti- English and anti-British ones. Which is probably the majority of them. 

 

1 hour ago, TapothehullDee said:

It's great watching these rabid Nats chewing their fists. 

 

Aye, that's totally what's going on here 

[Guest Jedi]

1 hour ago, renton said:

Small point perhaps but the last 5 "standard" polls (I.e. those using the standard question and 1,000 sample size) showed the Yes vote at 49, 49, 49, 50, 49

The last actual poll was that big (2000 sample size) ipsos Mori poll with the non standard question that showed Yes at 55%

Last 5 I can see, IPSOS Moray, Panelbase, Panelbase, Savana, YouGov are 50, 46,47,43,45. IPSOS Moray was a 2000 sample and 50% based on the question 'Should Should be an Independent country'/

The 'average' figure for the last 12 months is 43/44% (that includes summer this year when Yes was at 38/39%-sample 1000)

Edited November 23, 2022 by Jedi

[DA Baracus]

See folk who say "Once in a generation"; do they genuinely believe they're fooling anyone?

Also, folk might not care about this ruling, as another poster has said, but when the Tories start rescinding workers' rights, the process of which is well underway, and when the NHS starts charging or is punted completely for the fraudulent US model of 'insurance', when the energy prices never go back down, when the cost of a weekly shop continues to increase, when pretty everything remains expensive whilst their wages stagnate whilst they are told they'll be doing extra hours for no extra pay, will they continue to not care?

Edited November 23, 2022 by DA Baracus

[Guest Jedi]

2 minutes ago, DA Baracus said:

See folk who say "Once in a generation; do they genuinely believe they're fooling anyone?"

Also, folk might not care about this ruling, as another poster has said, but when the Tories start rescinding workers' rights, the process of which is well underway, and when the NHS starts charging or is punted completely for the fraudulent US model of 'insurance', when the energy prices never go back down, when the cost of a weekly shop continues to increase, when pretty everything remains expensive whilst their wages stagnate whilst they are told they'll be doing extra hours for no extra pay, will they continue to not care?

The Tories undoubtedly will rescind workers rights, will quite probably try to sell off the NHS to US venture capitalists, inflation will remain high for some time, which leads to a stagnation in wages etc...all true. Whatever the Tories do about health however would pertain to England and Wales and not apply in Scotland.

In Scotland, with health, education, transport, taxation devolved, and all the public sector workers named above striking over pay and conditions, not UK wide, but IN Scotland, under a government with fully devolved powers in these areas, again, does the SNP have 'any' responsibility to address these issues here, in the meantime, or is the stock answer that it is 'only' under Independence that we could make decisions on health, education, transport and taxation, which would allow us to pay public sector workers a fair wage more in line with a Cost of Living crisis. 

[D Angelo Barksdale]

59 minutes ago, Thistle_do_nicely said:

 

"If the Union ye wish to flee

Go to the Supreme Court must ye

To overcome Keir Starmer's curse

Simply quote a Simpson's verse"

[Cowden Cowboy]

One of the least contentious decisions ever - it was always pretty clear what the situation was and that this was a big waste of time and money.  The SNP can’t claim this as a good result as the opposite decision would have been such for them.  All it does is give greater clarity to what most folks thought was the position in the first place - that is a positive of sorts 

[KirkieRR]

On the whole we should welcome the ruling. We now know for certain that whatever we vote for, we probably won't get. It's neither fair nor just but there is no way, legally or democratically, we can change this as a nation.

If you're OK with this, you really can't complain about Johnson or Tories or Brexit or austerity. It doesn't matter whether or not most people in Scotland vote for these things. You agree that it's our patriotic duty as British subjects to take what we get rammed firmly up our fundament until our eyes water.

 

Voluntary union of equals?

 

Aye, right.

[Arch Stanton]

Westminster is the adult, Scotland is the chid.

Scotland: "Dad, can I get?"

Westmister "NO"

S: "How no?"

W: "Because"

S: "Because how?"

W: "BECAUSE I FUCKING SAY SO, THAT'S HOW."

[sparky88]

10 minutes ago, KirkieRR said:

On the whole we should welcome the ruling. We now know for certain that whatever we vote for, we probably won't get. It's neither fair nor just but there is no way, legally or democratically, we can change this as a nation.

If you're OK with this, you really can't complain about Johnson or Tories or Brexit or austerity. It doesn't matter whether or not most people in Scotland vote for these things. You agree that it's our patriotic duty as British subjects to take what we get rammed firmly up our fundament until our eyes water.

 

Voluntary union of equals?

 

Aye, right.

Or alternatively, the SNP shouldn't put stuff the Scottish Parliament doesnt't have jurisdiction over in their manifesto.

[welshbairn]

Probably been mentioned but if we call the Westminster election as a referendum we'll lose the 16-17 year old voters this time around. Probably won't make much difference though, bring it on! 

Edited November 23, 2022 by welshbairn

[lichtgilphead]

 

58 minutes ago, Jedi said:

Last 5 I can see, IPSOS Moray, Panelbase, Panelbase, Savana, YouGov are 50, 46,47,43,45. IPSOS Moray was a 2000 sample and 50% based on the question 'Should Should be an Independent country'/

The 'average' figure for the last 12 months is 43/44% (that includes summer this year when Yes was at 38/39%-sample 1000)

On 17/11/2022 at 20:48, lichtgilphead said:

Strangely, I don't remember the MSM press picking up on this recent Ipsos poll...

All tables available here: 

https://www.ipsos.com/sites/default/files/ct/news/documents/2022-11/public-attitudes-across-the-union-ipsos-knowledgepanel-uk-tables.pdf

Fieldwork dates: 13th October - 19th October 2022
Respondent type: KnowledgePanel Members - UK, 16+ 

Scottish voters only

I would prefer Scotland to vote against leaving the UK and becoming an independent country - 43%

Don't mind either way - 4%

I would prefer Scotland to vote for leaving the UK and becoming an independent country 50%

Don't know - 2%

With undecideds and those who aren't bothered stripped out, that works out as 54% in favour of independence and 46% opposed 

 

I see that Jedi is totally misrepresenting the latest Ipsos poll. He's got the question wrong and is reporting the result as if the "don't knows" and the "don't minds" would vote against leaving.

When the undecided are stripped out, Indy is 8 percentage points ahead.

A typical Labour ploy - who remembers 1979 when the dead were counted as voting "no"?