When will indyref2 happen?

[BFTD]

28 minutes ago, Granny Danger said:

It’s pish and should be treated with the contempt it deserves rather than long, considered responses.

He's making some amount of hay out of this. No wonder he's like a dog with a bone.

He hasn't even needed to bring up your Million Pound SIPP™ and Champagne Socialism® yet.

[TheScarf]

6 minutes ago, Dawson Park Boy said:

Yes- UK government . Totally different scenario.

No it isn’t. Both Spain and Scotland would be independent from the UK and the UK government would pay both pensions out as the pensioner made their contributions to their UK pension. 

[Dawson Park Boy]

1 minute ago, TheScarf said:

No it it’s. Both Spain and Scotland would be independent from the UK.

Absolutely, but the contributions were paid to the UK government which were immediately distributed for the benefit of all UK citizens on both sides of the border.

Spanish people received no benefit from the contributions therefore they have no liability. Due by UK government.

[Dawson Park Boy]

K

5 minutes ago, BFTD said:

He's making some amount of hay out of this. No wonder he's like a dog with a bone.

He hasn't even needed to bring up your Million Pound SIPP™ and Champagne Socialism® yet.

GD is just too thick to even try to understand.

He’s better at abuse.

[TheScarf]

2 minutes ago, Dawson Park Boy said:

Absolutely, but the contributions were paid to the UK government which were immediately distributed for the benefit of all UK citizens on both sides of the border.

Spanish people received no benefit from the contributions therefore they have no liability. Due by UK government.

That’s not how it works. 

[welshbairn]

44 minutes ago, Dawson Park Boy said:

Because NZ aren’t receiving contributions from UK citizens.

The only country liable for your sister is UK.

You're not making sense. She lives in New Zealand but previously paid NI in the UK, that's why she's entitled to a UK pension. 

[TheScarf]

Why would NZ or Spanish citizens get any benefit from a Brit paying NI in the UK then moving there? That doesn’t make any sense.

[Dawson Park Boy]

14 minutes ago, TheScarf said:

Why would NZ or Spanish citizens get any benefit from a Brit paying NI in the UK then moving there? That doesn’t make any sense.

A British citizen living abroad gets their pension from the UK albeit usually only at the rate when they started drawing it without increases.

A Scottish citizen post independence has paid their contributions to the UK government which was used immediately for UK public expenditure. Their pension will be paid by the SG out of income received from ongoing Scottish taxpayers.

Im done.

Rather than asking questions, why not try answering them?

Im happy to read your ideas.

[TheScarf]

6 minutes ago, Dawson Park Boy said:

A British citizen living abroad gets their pension from the UK albeit usually only at the rate when they started drawing it without increases.

A Scottish citizen post independence has paid their contributions to the UK government which was used immediately for UK public expenditure. Their pension will be paid by the SG out of income received from ongoing Scottish taxpayers.

Im done.

Rather than asking questions, why not try answering them?

Im happy to read your ideas.

That’s not how it works. It’s been explained to you on here countless times and you’re choosing to ignore it. 

[Dan Steele]

I know Westminster holds Scotland in total contempt but for a rUK to act in such bad faith as withholding pensions would be so incredibly stupid and further show the desperation and emptiness to the world that only an incompetent, petty, grudge holding, amateur government would even consider. Oh, wait.

[Clown Job]

People taking the pension argument as good faith 

[Hedgecutter]

The last couple of pages:

[git-intae-thum]

I fail to see how they can avoid paying out to all us dual nationals who will be  happily retired in free Scotland.

Maybe they will they introduce legislation ensuring a continued pay out to those living in every other country on Earth....... barring Scotland

Thankfully that scenario is laughable pish. It has has already been sensibly discounted by UK civil servants and Tory gov pension ministers.

As the assumed UK successor state, future pensions based on current contributions are an rUK liability.

There is no escaping that.

I would suggest that rUK will remain liable for the NI, civil, MOD etc pension contributions made by people in Scotland up until independence with iScotland taking up the slack thereafter.

Therefore if you currently receive a UK pension you will stay an that pension (albeit Scotgov may top it up to bring it more in to line with more civilized European nations). Any contributions from those still working up until independence are a UK liability. Any contributions thereafter will go to Scotgov and become a Scottish liability.

It is really not difficult.

 

[Inanimate Carbon Rod]

The UK pension is amongst the worst in Europe, get it to f**k and replaced with a decent fair settlement. Introduce UBI. The UK is a fucking shit show. 

[BFTD]

The state pension's getting wound up anyway, lads. I wouldn't worry about it.

[carpetmonster]

26 minutes ago, BFTD said:

The state pension's getting wound up anyway, lads. I wouldn't worry about it.

You reckon? We’ve got til next year to pay our NI stamp up - haven’t done since 2013 - and I’m really swuthering on whether to do it. No plans to come back to the UK, would consider Scotland if independent 

[Clown Job]

2 hours ago, BFTD said:

The state pension's getting wound up anyway, lads. I wouldn't worry about it.

I can already foresee a Tory plan to encourage retired people to work to receive the pension in the near future 

[Clown Job]

 

[Jeff Venom]

30 minutes ago, Clown Job said:

 

"Lead, not leave"

[strichener]

21 hours ago, Dawson Park Boy said:

Okay, let’s give this pension thing a go once again.

First of all, I have never worked in the pensions industry or have any special knowledge other than what any normal person can pick up from news reports or the media. So that’s my starting point. Maybe LB might join in as he did appear to have some insight into the topic.

1. When you contribute to NI , your contributions go immediately to paying pensions to those currently retired. In other words, there is NO pot as you have in company pension schemes or indeed in some public sector schemes such as teachers, police, health service, etc. That is the crucial point.

2. Over time you do however build up, through your contributions, an obligation for the state (UK at present) to pay you out when you reach pension age. Over the years there have been things like Graduated Pensions, SERPS etc, which, depending on how much you contribute give you an amount higher than the basic OAP.

3. The amount you get and any annual increase is a political matter and is determined by the government of the day e.g. the triple lock, inflation, etc. and has nothing to do with how much you may have contributed.

4. If Scotland were to vote for independence, your NI contributions and subsequent pension would be determined by your residence on the date of independence. No doubt there will be anomalies but let’s put those aside for now.

5. At that point RUK pensioners will be paid out from RUK contributors and Scottish pensioners from Scottish contributors. Exactly the same for both jurisdictions.

6. The liabilities built up within the UK system by Scottish pensioners will be taken on by the SG at independence date and it will be up to them as to how they deal with their state pension liabilities based on contributions thereafter. Just remember that the SG will be receiving all tax and national insurance receipts from independence date into the future.

7.The political worry for voters is as to whether the SG has the means to honour those liabilities bearing in mind that it’s taxpayer base is older and has fewer high earners than RUK(think London and the South East)

8.Refer to the report just out by the economist John McLaren regarding the Scottish taxpayer base relating to current tax devolution which means SG has to tax higher to produce the same revenue and is heading towards a large black hole. These matters may be of no concern to voters but will obviously come out in the lead up to any referendum

Ive  tried to lay out my thoughts on the basic principles involved and maybe others in the industry could add their wisdom.

We can come back to your specific queries in due course but I’ve done my best to expound how I I think it would work.

 

Thanks for your very detailed response.  It has certainly shed light on how you came to your position.  Of course that neither makes it sensible or logical.

As others have pointed out since, it matters not a jot what has been done with my NI contributions, the absolute fact is that I have now contributed sufficiently to the UK pension scheme for it to pay me a full pension.  Nothing that I do now (bar dying) will remove that entitlement.  Just as all those ex-pats that leave either before or after retirement age are entitled to their pension.

I think the main flaw in your argument is that you are confusing expenditure and liability.  That the UK government spend the contributions that are made is neither here nor there in regards to the liabilities that they are accepting by taking the payment.

Finally, it is a well trod path that there is no fund.  There is a fund albeit one that is massively underfunded. NIF Link

Edited September 23, 2022 by strichener