strichener Posted September 22, 2022 Share Posted September 22, 2022 (edited) 1 hour ago, Dawson Park Boy said: And that’s the problem!! Having lots of low earning, low tax paying, benefit receiving people is not going to pay the pensions of an ageing population. We need high earners and lots of them. Or alternatively we need everyone to be a middle-earner, no? With a tax system that seeks to promote equality and is prohibited to be used on vanity projects and projection Edited September 22, 2022 by strichener 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Steele Posted September 22, 2022 Share Posted September 22, 2022 1 hour ago, Dawson Park Boy said: Having lots of low earning, low tax paying, benefit receiving people is not going to pay the pensions of an ageing population. We need high earners and lots of them. And all those high earners that seek out ways to minimise their tax payments will help the situation how? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dawson Park Boy Posted September 22, 2022 Share Posted September 22, 2022 29 minutes ago, strichener said: Or alternatively we need everyone to be a middle-earner, no? With a tax system that seeks to promote equality and is prohibited to be used on vanity projects and projection Depends on your definition of middle earners. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dawson Park Boy Posted September 22, 2022 Share Posted September 22, 2022 1 hour ago, strichener said: Well now that you are back and mentioning pensions maybe you could take the opportunity to answer the ones that you avoided last time - To make it easier, here are the possible answers Q1 - Scottish Government / UK government Q2 - Scottish Government / UK government Q3 - Scottish Government / UK government Okay, let’s give this pension thing a go once again. First of all, I have never worked in the pensions industry or have any special knowledge other than what any normal person can pick up from news reports or the media. So that’s my starting point. Maybe LB might join in as he did appear to have some insight into the topic. 1. When you contribute to NI , your contributions go immediately to paying pensions to those currently retired. In other words, there is NO pot as you have in company pension schemes or indeed in some public sector schemes such as teachers, police, health service, etc. That is the crucial point. 2. Over time you do however build up, through your contributions, an obligation for the state (UK at present) to pay you out when you reach pension age. Over the years there have been things like Graduated Pensions, SERPS etc, which, depending on how much you contribute give you an amount higher than the basic OAP. 3. The amount you get and any annual increase is a political matter and is determined by the government of the day e.g. the triple lock, inflation, etc. and has nothing to do with how much you may have contributed. 4. If Scotland were to vote for independence, your NI contributions and subsequent pension would be determined by your residence on the date of independence. No doubt there will be anomalies but let’s put those aside for now. 5. At that point RUK pensioners will be paid out from RUK contributors and Scottish pensioners from Scottish contributors. Exactly the same for both jurisdictions. 6. The liabilities built up within the UK system by Scottish pensioners will be taken on by the SG at independence date and it will be up to them as to how they deal with their state pension liabilities based on contributions thereafter. Just remember that the SG will be receiving all tax and national insurance receipts from independence date into the future. 7.The political worry for voters is as to whether the SG has the means to honour those liabilities bearing in mind that it’s taxpayer base is older and has fewer high earners than RUK(think London and the South East) 8.Refer to the report just out by the economist John McLaren regarding the Scottish taxpayer base relating to current tax devolution which means SG has to tax higher to produce the same revenue and is heading towards a large black hole. These matters may be of no concern to voters but will obviously come out in the lead up to any referendum Ive tried to lay out my thoughts on the basic principles involved and maybe others in the industry could add their wisdom. We can come back to your specific queries in due course but I’ve done my best to expound how I I think it would work. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeeTillEhDeh Posted September 22, 2022 Share Posted September 22, 2022 Okay, let’s give this pension thing a go once again. First of all, I have never worked in the pensions industry or have any special knowledge other than what any normal person can pick up from news reports or the media. So that’s my starting point. Maybe LB might join in as he did appear to have some insight into the topic. 1. When you contribute to NI , your contributions go immediately to paying pensions to those currently retired. In other words, there is NO pot as you have in company pension schemes or indeed in some public sector schemes such as teachers, police, health service, etc. That is the crucial point. 2. Over time you do however build up, through your contributions, an obligation for the state (UK at present) to pay you out when you reach pension age. Over the years there have been things like Graduated Pensions, SERPS etc, which, depending on how much you contribute give you an amount higher than the basic OAP. 3. The amount you get and any annual increase is a political matter and is determined by the government of the day e.g. the triple lock, inflation, etc. and has nothing to do with how much you may have contributed. 4. If Scotland were to vote for independence, your NI contributions and subsequent pension would be determined by your residence on the date of independence. No doubt there will be anomalies but let’s put those aside for now. 5. At that point RUK pensioners will be paid out from RUK contributors and Scottish pensioners from Scottish contributors. Exactly the same for both jurisdictions. 6. The liabilities built up within the UK system by Scottish pensioners will be taken on by the SG at independence date and it will be up to them as to how they deal with their state pension liabilities based on contributions thereafter. Just remember that the SG will be receiving all tax and national insurance receipts from independence date into the future. 7.The political worry for voters is as to whether the SG has the means to honour those liabilities bearing in mind that it’s taxpayer base is older and has fewer high earners than RUK(think London and the South East) 8.Refer to the report just out by the economist John McLaren regarding the Scottish taxpayer base relating to current tax devolution which means SG has to tax higher to produce the same revenue and is heading towards a large black hole. These matters may be of no concern to voters but will obviously come out in the lead up to any referendum Ive tried to lay out my thoughts on the basic principles involved and maybe others in the industry could add their wisdom. We can come back to your specific queries in due course but I’ve done my best to expound how I I think it would work. You should have stopped after "First of all, I have never worked in the pensions industry". 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dawson Park Boy Posted September 22, 2022 Share Posted September 22, 2022 Just now, DeeTillEhDeh said: You should have stopped after "First of all, I have never worked in the pensions industry". Why? I haven’t. Whats your take on it? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welshbairn Posted September 22, 2022 Share Posted September 22, 2022 3 minutes ago, DeeTillEhDeh said: 4. If Scotland were to vote for independence, your NI contributions and subsequent pension would be determined by your residence on the date of independence. No doubt there will be anomalies but let’s put those aside for now. 5. At that point RUK pensioners will be paid out from RUK contributors and Scottish pensioners from Scottish contributors. Exactly the same for both jurisdictions. 6. The liabilities built up within the UK system by Scottish pensioners will be taken on by the SG at independence date and it will be up to them as to how they deal with their state pension liabilities based on contributions thereafter. Just remember that the SG will be receiving all tax and national insurance receipts from independence date into the future. So you're claiming that Scots who have paid NI and possible SERPS top ups for their entire lives to the Westminster Government can be told, sorry we don't owe you anything, ask Holyrood? You only mention liabilities, what about assets? 8.2% would be fair, of everything Scottish taxpayers have contributed to, in dollars or Euros please, none of these dodgy pay on the never never gilts. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Granny Danger Posted September 22, 2022 Share Posted September 22, 2022 A real win would be Independence and all the cúnts that post on here leaving. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dawson Park Boy Posted September 22, 2022 Share Posted September 22, 2022 4 minutes ago, welshbairn said: So you're claiming that Scots who have paid NI and possible SERPS top ups for their entire lives to the Westminster Government can be told, sorry we don't owe you anything, ask Holyrood? You only mention liabilities, what about assets? 8.2% would be fair, of everything Scottish taxpayers have contributed to, in dollars or Euros please, none of these dodgy pay on the never Yes, your accumulated entitlement would be paid by SG from Independence Day onwards. Remember, they are getting the tax income from all Scottish taxpayers from Independence Day onwards. Thats my take. Maybe someone more knowledgeable could step in here. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benjamin_Nevis Posted September 22, 2022 Share Posted September 22, 2022 5 minutes ago, Dawson Park Boy said: Yes, your accumulated entitlement would be paid by SG from Independence Day onwards. Remember, they are getting the tax income from all Scottish taxpayers from Independence Day onwards. Thats my take. Maybe someone more knowledgeable could step in here. State Pension is a contributions-based Social Security benefit. Therefore if someone has paid all their NI contributions to the treasury before Independence Day, they should be be paid their Pension by the UK government, because they will have met the conditionality for that benefit. The complexities will probably occur for those who are still of working age and will have split contributions firstly to the UKG, then post Indy to the ScotGov. Even allowing for how shit DWPs systems are, that should hardly prove insurmountable. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welshbairn Posted September 22, 2022 Share Posted September 22, 2022 6 minutes ago, Dawson Park Boy said: Yes, your accumulated entitlement would be paid by SG from Independence Day onwards. Remember, they are getting the tax income from all Scottish taxpayers from Independence Day onwards. Thats my take. Maybe someone more knowledgeable could step in here. Hang on a minute, would we lose all the accumulated liabilities of the UK as well as our share of the assets? That might not be such a bad deal. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welshbairn Posted September 22, 2022 Share Posted September 22, 2022 3 minutes ago, Day of the Lords said: State Pension is a contributions-based Social Security benefit. Therefore if someone has paid all their NI contributions to the treasury before Independence Day, they should be be paid their Pension by the UK government, because they will have met the conditionality for that benefit. The complexities will probably occur for those who are still of working age and will have split contributions firstly to the UKG, then post Indy to the ScotGov. Even allowing for how shit DWPs systems are, that should hardly prove insurmountable. My sister who became a New Zealand citizen has just retired and she has the choice of taking up the UK pension or the New Zealand one, but not both sadly. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dawson Park Boy Posted September 22, 2022 Share Posted September 22, 2022 30 minutes ago, Day of the Lords said: State Pension is a contributions-based Social Security benefit. Therefore if someone has paid all their NI contributions to the treasury before Independence Day, they should be be paid their Pension by the UK government, because they will have met the conditionality for that benefit. The complexities will probably occur for those who are still of working age and will have split contributions firstly to the UKG, then post Indy to the ScotGov. Even allowing for how shit DWPs systems are, that should hardly prove insurmountable. Disagree. Will be paid by SG. I think this is where the debate ended last time. LB- where are you? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dawson Park Boy Posted September 22, 2022 Share Posted September 22, 2022 29 minutes ago, welshbairn said: Hang on a minute, would we lose all the accumulated liabilities of the UK as well as our share of the assets? That might not be such a bad deal. State assets and liabilities is a different topic. Remember, the money you’ve been paying in has gone out as public expenditure over the whole UK just as someone in Bradford has been doing the same. After independence each country looks after its own citizens, 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welshbairn Posted September 22, 2022 Share Posted September 22, 2022 16 minutes ago, Dawson Park Boy said: State assets and liabilities is a different topic. Remember, the money you’ve been paying in has gone out as public expenditure over the whole UK just as someone in Bradford has been doing the same. After independence each country looks after its own citizens, So how come my sister is getting a UK pension in New Zealand, who are most definitely independent? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benjamin_Nevis Posted September 22, 2022 Share Posted September 22, 2022 (edited) 40 minutes ago, Dawson Park Boy said: Disagree. Will be paid by SG. I think this is where the debate ended last time. LB- HEEEEEELP MEEEEEEEEE Edited September 22, 2022 by Day of the Lords 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheScarf Posted September 22, 2022 Share Posted September 22, 2022 I see we’re still on the ‘we’d get no penshun!!!!’ shite. How do people who moved from the UK to Spain (Independent from the UK I believe?) get their pension? Who pays it? I have a hunch it might be the UK government? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Granny Danger Posted September 22, 2022 Share Posted September 22, 2022 15 minutes ago, TheScarf said: I see we’re still on the ‘we’d get no penshun!!!!’ shite. How do people who moved from the UK to Spain (Independent from the UK I believe?) get their pension? Who pays it? I have a hunch it might be the UK government? It’s pish and should be treated with the contempt it deserves rather than long, considered responses. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dawson Park Boy Posted September 22, 2022 Share Posted September 22, 2022 2 hours ago, welshbairn said: So how come my sister is getting a UK pension in New Zealand, who are most definitely independent? Because NZ aren’t receiving contributions from UK citizens. The only country liable for your sister is UK. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dawson Park Boy Posted September 22, 2022 Share Posted September 22, 2022 40 minutes ago, TheScarf said: I see we’re still on the ‘we’d get no penshun!!!!’ shite. How do people who moved from the UK to Spain (Independent from the UK I believe?) get their pension? Who pays it? I have a hunch it might be the UK government? Yes- UK government . Totally different scenario. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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