When will indyref2 happen?

[strichener]

1 hour ago, Left Back said:

So to go back to the EU point someone made earlier.  Are you suggesting the UK should have just walked away and not contributed towards future EU pension liability.  Those people were employed by the EU, who promised to pay them a pension so the liability is all theirs.

No, and neither am I suggesting that the Scottish Government would have no liability for future entitlement.  The question of where liability rests for existing entitlement is clearly with the entity that has received the payment that has created the liability in the first place. 

I can't even believe that this needs explained.  I'm not even sure that the UK government disputed this in the lead up to the 2014 referendum.  In the days of fear mongering, I am sure that the pension minister stated that the UK would continue to pay pensions for those that had accumulated entitlement.

State Pension for those that retire abroad*

 

*except for viewers in Scotland.

Edited September 7, 2022 by strichener

[Dawson Park Boy]

22 minutes ago, strichener said:

I am sorry, I don't think I am missing the point.  I have paid NI for over 30 years to the UK Exchequer, I therefore don't expect France to pay my pension.

The point that you are missing is the UK NI payments entitle you to a UK pension, regardless of where you live.

That pension entitlement would be paid to you by UK taxpayers but as Scotland has left the UK it is up to Sotttsh taxpayers to take on the liabilities. 
If you think it through it makes sense.

Maybe it’s time for an expert to explain?

[Left Back]

2 minutes ago, strichener said:

No, and neither am I suggesting that the Scottish Government would have no liability for future entitlement.  The question of where liability rests for existing entitlement is clearly with the entity that has received the payment that has created the liability in the first place. 

I can't even believe that this needs explained.  I'm not even sure that the UK government disputed this in the lead up to the 2014 referendum.  In the days of fear mongering, I am sure that the pension minister stated that the UK would continue to pay pensions for those that had accumulated entitlement.

So the UK gov builds up a pension liability, part of which is to pay Scottish pensioners, on the assumption they’ll be receiving tax receipts from Scotland to help fund that liability.

Those tax receipts are taken away but the liability still remains and the Scottish taxpayer contributes nothing towards paying the pensions of Scottish people.  In the meantime SG are laughing all the way to the bank for decades because they’ll have a trivial amount to pay out in pensions for that long?

People are kidding themselves if they think thats even a reasonable stance let alone something that had the remotest chance of happening.

I really am astonished at the views on this.  The only scenario I could imagine that’s more ridiculous than this would be if someone suggested Barnett consequentials should remain in place post independence.

[strichener]

10 minutes ago, Left Back said:

So the UK gov builds up a pension liability, part of which is to pay Scottish pensioners, on the assumption they’ll be receiving tax receipts from Scotland to help fund that liability.

Those tax receipts are taken away but the liability still remains and the Scottish taxpayer contributes nothing towards paying the pensions of Scottish people.  In the meantime SG are laughing all the way to the bank for decades because they’ll have a trivial amount to pay out in pensions for that long?

People are kidding themselves if they think thats even a reasonable stance let alone something that had the remotest chance of happening.

I really am astonished at the views on this.  The only scenario I could imagine that’s more ridiculous than this would be if someone suggested Barnett consequentials should remain in place post independence.

That assumption is irrelevant, there is nothing in legislation that states that pension are paid on that assumption.  Quite clearly there is an liability created at the point NI is collected as shown in my previous post.

The only reason that you are astonished is that you completely misunderstand the contract between the state and the worker in relation to pensions.  Here is my current pension record - 

This is sufficient to collect a full state pension in the UK.  I can stop working tomorrow and when I turn 67, get my full pension from the UK without contributing another bean to the treasury.  Why would the SG suddenly become liable for that if I happened to live in Scotland.  I see that you ignored the earlier scenarios in regards to who pays.

If I decide to move to England when I am 66 years and 364 days old having not paid a single pound in NI to the SG government, who pays my pension?
If I decide to move to England when I am 67 years and 1 day old having not paid a single pound in NI to the SG government, who pays my pension?
If I decide to move to England now having not paid a single pound in NI to the SG government, who pays my pension?

If your answer to all 3 is not the UK government then I despair.

Edited September 7, 2022 by strichener
me pension instead of my pension, sounds like I'm already in Yorkshire!

[strichener]

12 minutes ago, Dawson Park Boy said:

That pension entitlement would be paid to you by UK taxpayers but as Scotland has left the UK it is up to Sotttsh taxpayers to take on the liabilities. 
If you think it through it makes sense.

Maybe it’s time for an expert to explain?

Maybe it is time for you to make sense?  It is up to the UK taxpayer but it is actually up to the Scottish taxpayer, who on independence are two separate sets of people.  Crazy.

[Left Back]

5 minutes ago, strichener said:

That assumption is irrelevant, there is nothing in legislation that states that pension are paid on that assumption.  Quite clearly there is an liability created at the point NI is collected as shown in my previous post.

The only reason that you are astonished is that you completely misunderstand the contract between the state and the worker in relation to pensions.  Here is my current pension record - 

This is sufficient to collect a full state pension in the UK.  I can stop working tomorrow and when I turn 67, get my full pension from the UK without contributing another bean to the treasury.  Why would the SG suddenly become liable for that if I happened to live in Scotland.  I see that you ignored the earlier scenarios in regards to who pays.

If I decide to move to England when I am 66 years and 364 days old having not paid a single pound in NI to the SG government, who pays my pension?
If I decide to move to England when I am 67 years and 1 day old having not paid a single pound in NI to the SG government, who pays my pension?
If I decide to move to England now having not paid a single pound in NI to the SG government, who pays my pension?

If your answer to all 3 is not the UK government then I despair.

I'm out of this conversation.  A whole bunch of people are clearly in denial about what would happen in the real world and looks like deliberately confusing paying with funding.  I'm not repeating myself any more.

 

[lichtgilphead]

40 minutes ago, strichener said:

I am sorry, I don't think I am missing the point.  I have paid NI for over 30 years to the UK Exchequer, I therefore don't expect France to pay my pension.

The point that you are missing is the UK NI payments entitle you to a UK pension, regardless of where you live.

Exactly.

My partner's aunt is a US citizen, who spent her working career in Scotland. The US Govt do not pay her any pension, but the UK Govt do.

In contrast, however, my brother has spent his entire working life in London. Are the Yoons seriously suggesting that if he moves to Spain on retiral, that he will get a rUK pension, but if he moves home, he will not get a rUK pension?

Finally, I spent a couple of years working in Manchester (for a Scottish employer). Where will my contributions from that time be counted for my pension entitlement?

In all 3 cases, I would suggest that the ongoing pension payment is due from the rUK Govt after Indy. What say you, Yoons?

[sophia]

11 minutes ago, lichtgilphead said:

What say you, Yoons?

 

[strichener]

1 hour ago, Left Back said:

I'm out of this conversation.  A whole bunch of people are clearly in denial about what would happen in the real world and looks like deliberately confusing paying with funding.  I'm not repeating myself any more.

 

Instead of repeating yourself, why not answer the questions.  If you are so sure of your position it shouldn't be that difficult.

[Dawson Park Boy]

50 minutes ago, strichener said:

Instead of repeating yourself, why not answer the questions.  If you are so sure of your position it shouldn't be that difficult.

He has, as have i.

We seem to be banging our heads against a brick wall.

Better just let it rest for now.

[Antlion]

8 minutes ago, Dawson Park Boy said:

He has, as have i.

We seem to be banging our heads against a brick wall.

Better just let it rest for now.

Or you could bulldoze it.

[Dan Steele]

Well, on the plus side we are getting a pension so the No Pension lies can't be thrown about this time.

[TxRover]

1 hour ago, strichener said:

Instead of repeating yourself, why not answer the questions.  If you are so sure of your position it shouldn't be that difficult.

 

31 minutes ago, Dawson Park Boy said:

He has, as have i.

We seem to be banging our heads against a brick wall.

Better just let it rest for now.

I would suggest that no one knows the answer at this point. Until the negotiations about withdrawal from the Union are concluded, there is no answer. Each side will have a position, and those positions will morph until an agreement is reached.

[Dawson Park Boy]

6 minutes ago, The Skelpit Lug said:

Well, on the plus side we are getting a pension so the No Pension lies can't be thrown about this time.

One last go.

Yes, of course you’ll get your OAP.

The only point is that post independence, the SG would pick up the tab as pensions are paid out of current taxation and the SG will be collecting all the tax revenues from Scottish taxpayers.

For the umpteenth time, there is no fund like you have in a company scheme.

If you retire on 31st December, from 1st January your OAP is paid from taxes collected from taxpayers from 1st January onwards.

The only consideration for the SG and it’s finances is whether it has enough sufficiently high earning and therefore tax paying individuals to meet the ever increasing retired population. The demographics could be costly but I’m no expert on these matters or indeed Government pensions but I do believe the position as outlined is true.

Good evening all

 

[Benjamin_Nevis]

I think this is the article @strichener is referring to 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-27309215

[Dawson Park Boy]

7 hours ago, Day of the Lords said:

I think this is the article @strichener is referring to 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-27309215

I think that’s what I’ve been saying.

The last point about economic downturns is probably the important bit.

[HTG]

1 hour ago, Dawson Park Boy said:

I think that’s what I’ve been saying.

The last point about economic downturns is probably the important bit.

No. No it isn't. The last umpteen pages have focused on the UK govt not paying pensions of people who have made national insurance contributions. All you're doing is shifting to an entirely different point now that that's been debunked. We're simply back to the too wee, too poor argument that small countries can't deal with economic downturns in the way larger economies can. Which is bollocks - otherwise lots of small countries would be basket cases.  But they're not. 

It really is little wonder that people like you attract grief on here. You flit from one piece of nonsense to the next with barely a pause to draw breath.

[Dan Steele]

10 hours ago, Dawson Park Boy said:

The only point

Yes, but my point was to confront the ludicrous argument that was used to scare people last ref. that they wouldn't get any pension. Good that such lies are now being put to bed.

[Antlion]

2 minutes ago, The Skelpit Lug said:

Yes, but my point was to confront the ludicrous argument that was used to scare people last ref. that they wouldn't get any pension. Good that such lies are now being put to bed.

I have a feeling they’ll be easily shaken awake and dragged out again.

[Dawson Park Boy]

57 minutes ago, HTG said:

No. No it isn't. The last umpteen pages have focused on the UK govt not paying pensions of people who have made national insurance contributions. All you're doing is shifting to an entirely different point now that that's been debunked. We're simply back to the too wee, too poor argument that small countries can't deal with economic downturns in the way larger economies can. Which is bollocks - otherwise lots of small countries would be basket cases.  But they're not. 

It really is little wonder that people like you attract grief on here. You flit from one piece of nonsense to the next with barely a pause to draw breath.

Wrong again.

It will be the SG paying the pensions of Scottish pensioners, not the UK government.

It really isn’t hard to understand.

No wonder Left Back has given up.