When will indyref2 happen?

[williemillersmoustache]

15 minutes ago, BFTD said:

How on Earth this is a negative is beyond me. I'd want that in fucking writing.

I'd still want a chunk of that considering the set cost more than the entire BBC Shortbread channel. 

[Left Back]

25 minutes ago, git-intae-thum said:

The article points in that direction. The footnote makes it very clear.

A negotiated settlement wherebye rUK assumes liability for those with pension entitlement in exchange for some yet to be determined trade is the only sensible scenario.

It really doesn't.  You probably need to read and understand the entire article.  It isn't leaning one way or another and discussing various positions that could be taken.

I've already pointed out to you where the article clearly says the footnote is not set in stone.  Just in case you can't find it it's here.

"Since individuals have no ownership rights over their past contributions, the UK Government can change the qualifying rules for state pensions as its sees fit."

[BFTD]

27 minutes ago, williemillersmoustache said:

I'd still want a chunk of that considering the set cost more than the entire BBC Shortbread channel. 

We can write that off after thirty years or so!

I'll throw in a fiver a week from the pension I'll never see if it rids us of that shite. ITV can keep Coronation Street too.

[git-intae-thum]

16 minutes ago, Left Back said:

 

"Since individuals have no ownership rights over their past contributions, the UK Government can change the qualifying rules for state pensions as its sees fit."

Obviously they can......they could tell you and I we were to work until we are 100 before we draw.......an given the direction of recent UK governments who knows.

 This doesn't take away from the fact that the UK gov is currently liable for our state and gov pensions. It will  continue to hold liability and therefore pay a large part of, if not all, of the pension to those with the required entitlement post independence. 

For the reasons now repeatedly provided, any other scenario is unworkable for both governments. How would they decide who is entitled and who is not?

...folk can read that particular FOA paper (and the many others available) and draw their own conclusions to be honest.

The more info folk have the less likely they are to fall for the scaremongering rubbish.

[Left Back]

3 minutes ago, git-intae-thum said:

Obviously they can......they could tell you and I we were to work until we are 100 before we draw.......an given the direction of recent UK governments who knows.

 This doesn't take away from the fact that the UK gov is currently liable for our state and gov pensions. It will  continue to hold liability and therefore pay a large part of, if not all, of the pension to those with the required entitlement post independence. 

For the reasons now repeatedly provided, any other scenario is unworkable for both governments. How would they decide who is entitled and who is not?

...folk can read that particular FOA paper (and the many others available) and draw their own conclusions to be honest.

The more info folk have the less likely they are to fall for the scaremongering rubbish.

We'll we'll see if and when it happens.  Personally I believe there's absolutely zero chance of rUK funding Scottish pensions and therefore subsidising an independent Scotland.  Anyone who thinks there is is deluded imo.

[Billy Jean King]

The notion that the rUK govt would simply keep every penny paid in NI contributions by every working Scot towards their state pension in the event of a yes vote with a newly formed Scottish govt then having to pay that pension without any form of settlement in lieu of the pre indy contributions is as far fetched as it is pathetic. An old trope that simply won't happen and how clearly intelligent people can be convinced such as scenario is even remotely likely is beyond my comprehension. There will be a settlement reached in post Indy negotiations.

[doulikefish]

It's the old "your not getting yer pension cash" and "we will be paying our share of the debt," Yoon nonsense

Much like Truss announcing loads of new fracking/drilling in the north sea and nobody's asked were it all is since it's running out in just over 20 years 

[Antlion]

5 minutes ago, Billy Jean King said:

The notion that the rUK govt would simply keep every penny paid in NI contributions by every working Scot towards their state pension in the event of a yes vote with a newly formed Scottish govt then having to pay that pension without any form of settlement in lieu of the pre indy contributions is as far fetched as it is pathetic. An old trope that simply won't happen and how clearly intelligent people can be convinced such as scenario is even remotely likely is beyond my comprehension. There will be a settlement reached in post Indy negotiations.

This is the rub. There’s so much that can’t be answered clearly until after any such negotiations are concluded. Yet that won’t stop UKNats making simplistic, conclusive statements (“you absolutely won’t get your tiny pensions!”). They will also leap on the fact that much is dependent on negotiation to say, “you can’t vote for independence without definite answers on everything”. Bear in mind, many of these same people voted for Brexit on a wing and a prayer, whilst confidently claiming that things absolutely would happen to their satisfaction just because.

Every time a UK Nat demands clear answers on anything that can’t be answered, it’s worth reminding them of their willingness to back Blank Cheque Brexit Britain.

[git-intae-thum]

3 minutes ago, Left Back said:

We'll we'll see if and when it happens.  Personally I believe there's absolutely zero chance of rUK funding Scottish pensions and therefore subsidising an independent Scotland.  Anyone who thinks there is is deluded imo.

It's deluded and simple thinking to think they won't.

How do you distinguish the state pension entitlement of the retiree who moved from Farnham to Fife, from someone who has lived and worked in Dunfermline all their days? What about the Scot who worked in London and paid NI contributions for years but has returned home......what is their entitlement? What of the Welshman who worked in the Aberdeen oil industry and is now back in Cardiff.  

The mod pension of Tongan veteran living in Tonga continues getting paid but the Scots veteran in Scotland doesn't?

Nonsense.

These commitments will at least in part be met by rUK gov as part of a negotiated settlement. 

It also stands to reason that the commitment will diminish over time.

 

[Left Back]

18 minutes ago, Billy Jean King said:

The notion that the rUK govt would simply keep every penny paid in NI contributions by every working Scot towards their state pension in the event of a yes vote with a newly formed Scottish govt then having to pay that pension without any form of settlement in lieu of the pre indy contributions is as far fetched as it is pathetic. An old trope that simply won't happen and how clearly intelligent people can be convinced such as scenario is even remotely likely is beyond my comprehension. There will be a settlement reached in post Indy negotiations.

The newly formed Scottish government will pay for it out of tax receipts raised, in exactly the same way UK pensions are paid for and the liability will be passed to them.  There are roughly a million people of pension age in Scotland.  The state pension is approximately £10k per year so that would be roughly £10bn that has to be funded every year.  Do you really think the UK gov are going to fund that for the next few decades (given that over time it will decline).  We're talking hundreds of billions of pounds.  Do you really believe UK gov is going to subsidise an independent Scotland to the tune of hundreds of billions of pounds?

What settlement in lieu of the pre-indy contributions?  The pre-indy contributions have been spent on previous generations of pensioners.  There is no pot of money to claim a share of.  Pensions are paid for on a month to month basis by the tax receipts.  If there was a pot of money I'd agree Scotland would be entitled to a share but that's not how state pensions work in the UK.

[TheScarf]

31 minutes ago, Billy Jean King said:

The notion that the rUK govt would simply keep every penny paid in NI contributions by every working Scot towards their state pension in the event of a yes vote with a newly formed Scottish govt then having to pay that pension without any form of settlement in lieu of the pre indy contributions is as far fetched as it is pathetic. An old trope that simply won't happen and how clearly intelligent people can be convinced such as scenario is even remotely likely is beyond my comprehension. There will be a settlement reached in post Indy negotiations.

Exactly.  'Scexit' will be years of negotiations like Brexit was.  Everything will need to be agreed/settled, we don't just become independent and that's it.  There's fucking thousands of things that would need transferred from the UK to Scotland that are currently reserved, including pensions.

[Dawson Park Boy]

34 minutes ago, Billy Jean King said:

The notion that the rUK govt would simply keep every penny paid in NI contributions by every working Scot towards their state pension in the event of a yes vote with a newly formed Scottish govt then having to pay that pension without any form of settlement in lieu of the pre indy contributions is as far fetched as it is pathetic. An old trope that simply won't happen and how clearly intelligent people can be convinced such as scenario is even remotely likely is beyond my comprehension. There will be a settlement reached in post Indy negotiations.

You are just so wrong.
Every penny collected from UK(ruk plus Scots taxpayers) prior to independence will have been spent for the benefit of all UK citizens. There is NO fund as in private pensions.

As I said earlier, it’s time you clarified this with your SNP politicians.

[TheScarf]

[Antlion]

5 minutes ago, Dawson Park Boy said:

You are just so wrong.
Every penny collected from UK(ruk plus Scots taxpayers) prior to independence will have been spent for the benefit of all UK citizens. There is NO fund as in private pensions.

As I said earlier, it’s time you clarified this with your SNP politicians.

Clarification ahead of a referendum? I thought you were dead against that sort of thing.

[Dawson Park Boy]

3 minutes ago, Antlion said:

Clarification ahead of a referendum? I thought you were dead against that sort of thing.

We’re talking facts here, not opinion.

Left Back has outlined the position correctly.

No need to believe us.

Check it out.

[Billy Jean King]

The newly formed Scottish government will pay for it out of tax receipts raised, in exactly the same way UK pensions are paid for and the liability will be passed to them.  There are roughly a million people of pension age in Scotland.  The state pension is approximately £10k per year so that would be roughly £10bn that has to be funded every year.  Do you really think the UK gov are going to fund that for the next few decades (given that over time it will decline).  We're talking hundreds of billions of pounds.  Do you really believe UK gov is going to subsidise an independent Scotland to the tune of hundreds of billions of pounds?
What settlement in lieu of the pre-indy contributions?  The pre-indy contributions have been spent on previous generations of pensioners.  There is no pot of money to claim a share of.  Pensions are paid for on a month to month basis by the tax receipts.  If there was a pot of money I'd agree Scotland would be entitled to a share but that's not how state pensions work in the UK.

You are misinterpreting or not understanding what I posted. Of course the SG will pay it from day 1 (would seem an obvious solution but who knows) but the settlement in lieu of contributions already made to the UKG will be go towards the funding of it. No one is saying the UKG will fully fund it or pay it for years. There will be a settlement figure the terms of which (one off or ongoing instalments from UKG) will be decided during the negotiations.

[Billy Jean King]

You are just so wrong.
Every penny collected from UK(ruk plus Scots taxpayers) prior to independence will have been spent for the benefit of all UK citizens. There is NO fund as in private pensions.
As I said earlier, it’s time you clarified this with your SNP politicians.

So how are pensions funded just now. Are you telling us the UK treasury is quite literally living month to month on a hand to mouth basis spending every penny it receives each month ?

[Left Back]

26 minutes ago, git-intae-thum said:

It's deluded and simple thinking to think they won't.

How do you distinguish the state pension entitlement of the retiree who moved from Farnham to Fife, from someone who has lived and worked in Dunfermline all their days? What about the Scot who worked in London and paid NI contributions for years but has returned home......what is their entitlement? What of the Welshman who worked in the Aberdeen oil industry and is now back in Cardiff.  

The mod pension of Tongan veteran living in Tonga continues getting paid but the Scots veteran in Scotland doesn't?

Nonsense.

These commitments will at least in part be met by rUK gov as part of a negotiated settlement. 

It also stands to reason that the commitment will diminish over time.

 

What will likely happen there is there will be a reciprocal arrangement in place between Scotland and rUK entitling you to certain benefits, so an English person that lives in Scotland will be entitled to things like free healthcare, social security etc and the reverse will apply.   Therefore whichever country you're in your pension benefits will still accrue but when it's time to receive your state pension it will be funded by whichever country you happen to be living in at the time.  If you then happen to move country after you start receiving your pension it will still continue to be paid by whichever country you originally claimed it from (similar to a current UK citizen retiring abroad)

[Antlion]

1 minute ago, Dawson Park Boy said:

We’re talking facts here, not opinion.

Left Back has outlined the position correctly.

No need to believe us.

Check it out.

Another fact is that Brexit represented a vote for a complete set of unknowns promoted, falsely, as absolute truths.

Scottish independence will also involve unknowns - nothing posted so far (by anyone) proves exactly what Scottish citizens’ pensions will be or what the process for their provision will be, because there’s no chance of this being worked out unless and until Scotland votes for independence.

[Left Back]

2 minutes ago, Billy Jean King said:

16 minutes ago, Dawson Park Boy said:

You are just so wrong.
Every penny collected from UK(ruk plus Scots taxpayers) prior to independence will have been spent for the benefit of all UK citizens. There is NO fund as in private pensions.
As I said earlier, it’s time you clarified this with your SNP politicians.

So how are pensions funded just now. Are you telling us the UK treasury is quite literally living month to month on a hand to mouth basis spending every penny it receives each month ?

When it comes to pensions pretty much yes. 

I can't remember the name of it but there's basically a buffer account that holds roughly two months or so of payments that is drawn from and topped up on a monthly basis.  This account or fund or whatever exists to ensure that there is enough money to pay out if contributions for that month aren't as much as needs to be paid out.

Current NI contributions aren't put into a ring fenced fund or invested.  They are used to pay the pensions of existing pensioners.