When will indyref2 happen?

[Dan Steele]

1 hour ago, Antlion said:

She has led from the front on Ukraine, repeal of EU law, saving Northern Ireland, and real policies for economic growth

The genius of this is that none of it is remotely true. Words and meaning seem to have become unhinged and the very act of saying it now gives it authority and 'truth' - if you are given coverage by the media. Truss is a classic example of this method of 'making lies sound truthful', as Orwell wrote. For all she's been called out for playing to her Tory audience, what are the policies being discussed behind the scenes? Regional pay and slashing doctors pay have been "mischaracterised" and she says she's being " misrepresented". Called out and backtracked seems to be becoming quite a common thing. The worrying thing is not what she hasn't done, it is what she and those who are aligned with her, will do when in power. The future is bleak, I fear.

[Antlion]

1 hour ago, oldbitterandgrumpy said:

I know this is petty, but would you please stop referring to the UK as Britain. 

He’s doing that deliberately so as to argue that GB the island should not be allowed to have two nations on it (because that’s partitionist and partition is evil), whilst not having to address why it’s ok for the UK to have partitioned Ireland. But he fucks it up by saying “Britain” rather than GB, because he’s not as smart as he thinks he is.

[TheScarf]

Has there been any recent poles of English voters on Scottish Independence?  Be interesting to see their take.

[Suspect Device]

3 hours ago, Duries Air Freshener said:

Really want to read the article, but there’s no chance I’m paying a tenner per month subscription.

The SNP has to be defeated, not appeased

It would be a humiliation if the UK were to be broken up by the Nationalists. It would also be immoral

In 1995, the then shadow Scottish secretary, George (now Lord) Robertson, made one of the worst political predictions of all time when he said that “devolution will kill nationalism stone dead”. We saw the result of this terrible misjudgment in the hate-filled mob outside the Tory leadership hustings on Tuesday night. Many people in England will have watched those television images and thought, “Why would I ever go to Scotland if that is what they think of us?” That is, of course, what the SNP wants. Those of us who believe in our country need to start fighting back.

To be fair, Robertson was not alone in his opinion. It was the conventional wisdom in 1999 when the Scottish Parliament was established.

We now know, of course, that one of the doubters, in private, was Tony Blair. Showing, as so often, that he was a more far-sighted politician than most of his critics, he described devolution in his memoirs as a “dangerous game … you can never be sure where nationalist sentiment ends and separatist sentiment begins”. He was right.

We are where we are. But we won’t save the UK by going further down the same path. I am confident that Liz Truss knows that.

The new government can start by changing its language. Somehow we have all drifted into speaking as if this country were already a confederation made up of four “nations” that have chosen to work together (but could equally choose differently). When we think like that, we end up having to constantly justify the existence of our country, on a purely transactional basis.

But the UK is a unitary state, not a federation or a confederation. Both the 1707 and 1801 Acts of Union fused the participants into one state in which all were equal, first “Great Britain”, then the “United Kingdom”, with one sovereign legal personality and one Parliament and government.

For all the noise, that is still the case. The Scottish “government” is not the government of a state in confederation with England. It is a subordinate entity within the UK, with powers granted to it by the UK government and Parliament, and ultimately subject to the supremacy of that Parliament. SNP activists hate it when you remind them of this. All the more need to do so.

Moreover, if you are a citizen of that unitary state, you are British. The SNP’s nationalist allies in Northern Ireland try to blur this, too. Sky News’s Ireland correspondent Stephen Murphy stepped into this confusion this week when he criticised Rishi Sunak for calling his audience at the Belfast hustings “Britons”. Perhaps a few in the room had Irish nationality as dual nationals, and many would be entitled to it. But overwhelmingly they will have been nationals of the UK and hence correctly and legally called British citizens.

It is important to keep stating these truths. If we forget them we are playing the SNP’s game. Nationalists are obsessional about language – so we need to use it correctly ourselves.

Then we need to act. The devolution settlement is not written in stone. It has evolved – all in one direction – since 1999. It can evolve back, too.

We can begin by stopping mission creep. The devolved administrations do not have powers in foreign relations or immigration – they are “reserved matters”. So why was the SNP able to control who came into the country during the pandemic on the basis of public health laws? Why are they spending taxpayers’ money on their own “embassies” overseas? If the UK government does not police these boundaries, soon they will no longer exist.

Finally, there needs to be clarity on the terms of a referendum – clarity which reflects the reality that it is wholly exceptional for states to allow their own dissolution. Of course, any government would have to respect the settled will of an overwhelming majority in Scotland to govern themselves. But those terms have to be defined. I would suggest 75 per cent of seats in the Scottish Parliament in favour of independence, over a 10-year period, legally binding. Without that, a referendum should simply be impossible.

Meanwhile, I urge people in England not to give in to the “let them go” argument. Partly because the break-up of the country would be a massive national humiliation. In Europe and beyond, it would be seen as a comeuppance which they would exploit to the full. But, more importantly, because it is morally wrong. Supporters of the Union in Scotland, people who have built their lives and families on the assumption of its permanence, should not be abandoned. The UK is everyone’s country and we must protect and support it.

Westminster politicians invariably say they want a “constructive relationship” with the Scottish government. The new UK government must realise the relationship is only constructive when it is doing what the SNP wants. In the current institutional set-up, a constructive relationship is a sign of failure. Instead, we need disagreement, vigorous argument, and consistent political challenge to the SNP world-view.

That’s what we need to see – because that’s what’s needed to save the country.

Edited August 19, 2022 by Suspect Device

[O'Kelly Isley III]

3 hours ago, Duries Air Freshener said:

George square was a two way thing.

The behaviour of the Nats, who for some reason still wanted to hog the square despite having lost, was despicable.

Their anger and sense of entitlement was beyond belief.  It was understandable though, given the grudge and grievance they’d been fed for months.

As one policeman rightly said to an angry, overweight Nat: ‘Everyone has a right to be here’

Were you there, and if so, what was your reason for being in George Square ?

[carpetmonster]

4 minutes ago, TheScarf said:

Has there been any recent poles of English voters on Scottish Independence?  Be interesting to see their take.

I saw a very loose one on Twitter last week - can’t remember who it was - but that ran 37 Scotland should f**k off 33 no we just want to love you 30 DGAF. 

[Duries Air Freshener]

4 minutes ago, O'Kelly Isley III said:

Were you there, and if so, what was your reason for being in George Square ?

No I wasn’t there.

[TheScarf]

1 minute ago, carpetmonster said:

I saw a very loose one on Twitter last week - can’t remember who it was - but that ran 37 Scotland should f**k off 33 no we just want to love you 30 DGAF. 

It's a weird one, I see a lot of 'fack off you facking freelaowding jock cants, we pay for yaow' on Twitter.  But in the next breath they're waving Union flags.  Make your mind up lads.

[Duries Air Freshener]

8 minutes ago, Suspect Device said:

The SNP has to be defeated, not appeased

It would be a humiliation if the UK were to be broken up by the Nationalists. It would also be immoral

In 1995, the then shadow Scottish secretary, George (now Lord) Robertson, made one of the worst political predictions of all time when he said that “devolution will kill nationalism stone dead”. We saw the result of this terrible misjudgment in the hate-filled mob outside the Tory leadership hustings on Tuesday night. Many people in England will have watched those television images and thought, “Why would I ever go to Scotland if that is what they think of us?” That is, of course, what the SNP wants. Those of us who believe in our country need to start fighting back.

To be fair, Robertson was not alone in his opinion. It was the conventional wisdom in 1999 when the Scottish Parliament was established.

We now know, of course, that one of the doubters, in private, was Tony Blair. Showing, as so often, that he was a more far-sighted politician than most of his critics, he described devolution in his memoirs as a “dangerous game … you can never be sure where nationalist sentiment ends and separatist sentiment begins”. He was right.

We are where we are. But we won’t save the UK by going further down the same path. I am confident that Liz Truss knows that.

The new government can start by changing its language. Somehow we have all drifted into speaking as if this country were already a confederation made up of four “nations” that have chosen to work together (but could equally choose differently). When we think like that, we end up having to constantly justify the existence of our country, on a purely transactional basis.

But the UK is a unitary state, not a federation or a confederation. Both the 1707 and 1801 Acts of Union fused the participants into one state in which all were equal, first “Great Britain”, then the “United Kingdom”, with one sovereign legal personality and one Parliament and government.

For all the noise, that is still the case. The Scottish “government” is not the government of a state in confederation with England. It is a subordinate entity within the UK, with powers granted to it by the UK government and Parliament, and ultimately subject to the supremacy of that Parliament. SNP activists hate it when you remind them of this. All the more need to do so.

Moreover, if you are a citizen of that unitary state, you are British. The SNP’s nationalist allies in Northern Ireland try to blur this, too. Sky News’s Ireland correspondent Stephen Murphy stepped into this confusion this week when he criticised Rishi Sunak for calling his audience at the Belfast hustings “Britons”. Perhaps a few in the room had Irish nationality as dual nationals, and many would be entitled to it. But overwhelmingly they will have been nationals of the UK and hence correctly and legally called British citizens.

It is important to keep stating these truths. If we forget them we are playing the SNP’s game. Nationalists are obsessional about language – so we need to use it correctly ourselves.

Then we need to act. The devolution settlement is not written in stone. It has evolved – all in one direction – since 1999. It can evolve back, too.

We can begin by stopping mission creep. The devolved administrations do not have powers in foreign relations or immigration – they are “reserved matters”. So why was the SNP able to control who came into the country during the pandemic on the basis of public health laws? Why are they spending taxpayers’ money on their own “embassies” overseas? If the UK government does not police these boundaries, soon they will no longer exist.

Finally, there needs to be clarity on the terms of a referendum – clarity which reflects the reality that it is wholly exceptional for states to allow their own dissolution. Of course, any government would have to respect the settled will of an overwhelming majority in Scotland to govern themselves. But those terms have to be defined. I would suggest 75 per cent of seats in the Scottish Parliament in favour of independence, over a 10-year period, legally binding. Without that, a referendum should simply be impossible.

Meanwhile, I urge people in England not to give in to the “let them go” argument. Partly because the break-up of the country would be a massive national humiliation. In Europe and beyond, it would be seen as a comeuppance which they would exploit to the full. But, more importantly, because it is morally wrong. Supporters of the Union in Scotland, people who have built their lives and families on the assumption of its permanence, should not be abandoned. The UK is everyone’s country and we must protect and support it.

Westminster politicians invariably say they want a “constructive relationship” with the Scottish government. The new UK government must realise the relationship is only constructive when it is doing what the SNP wants. In the current institutional set-up, a constructive relationship is a sign of failure. Instead, we need disagreement, vigorous argument, and consistent political challenge to the SNP world-view.

That’s what we need to see – because that’s what’s needed to save the country.

Thankyou SD.

[williemillersmoustache]

21 minutes ago, TheScarf said:

Has there been any recent poles of English voters on Scottish Independence?  Be interesting to see their take.

One suspects the answers are in here and they're not great for the one great family of nations crowd. 

 

 

[Suspect Device]

19 minutes ago, Duries Air Freshener said:

No I wasn’t there.

You're welcome. For some reason, when I use my UK news app it gets round the paywall. 

Reading it just confirms my belief that Frost is an utter fanny. Trying to say that English people would see the 'scenes' on Tuesday and link it to anti Englis sentiment rather than anti Tory sentiment is just batshit mental. He  also shows stunning delusion in thinking that the Tories are anywhere near 'defeating the SNP.

My view of him was already pretty poor given his constant criticism of the Brexit settlement that HE was in charge of drawing up. Reminds me of the story about a plumber coming round to look at a boiler. He shakes his head and asks the customer "What fucking cowboy installed this?" The customer replies. "It was you".

 

 

 

ETA: Just noticed that some fanny red dotted me for posting the opinion piece. No good deed goes unpunished as they say. 

Edited August 19, 2022 by Suspect Device

[TheScarf]

6 minutes ago, williemillersmoustache said:

One suspects the answers are in here and they're not great for the one great family of nations crowd. 

 

 

You'd think so.  If it was pro-Union, they'd have the poll result on fucking billboards.

[Larry Hood]

6 minutes ago, Suspect Device said:

You're welcome. For some reason, when I use my UK news app it gets round the paywall. 

Reading it just confirms my belief that Frost is an utter fanny. Trying to say that English people would see the 'scenes' on Tuesday and link it to anti Englis sentiment rather than anti Tory sentiment is just batshit mental. He  also shows stunning delusion in thinking that the Tories are anywhere near 'defeating the SNP.

My view of him was already pretty poor given his constant criticism of the Brexit settlement that HE was in charge of drawing up. Reminds me of the story about a plumber coming round to look at a boiler. He shakes his head and asks the customer "What fucking cowboy installed this?" The customer replies. "It was you".

 

 

 

ETA: Just noticed that some fanny red dotted me for posting the opinion piece. No good deed goes unpunished as they say. 

• Well, thought it was your opinion.

[Suspect Device]

4 minutes ago, Larry Hood said:

• Well, thought it was your opinion.

 

I possibly should have made it more clear that it was straight from the Torygraph opinion piece. 

[Duries Air Freshener]

27 minutes ago, Suspect Device said:

You're welcome. For some reason, when I use my UK news app it gets round the paywall. 

Reading it just confirms my belief that Frost is an utter fanny. Trying to say that English people would see the 'scenes' on Tuesday and link it to anti Englis sentiment rather than anti Tory sentiment is just batshit mental. He  also shows stunning delusion in thinking that the Tories are anywhere near 'defeating the SNP.

My view of him was already pretty poor given his constant criticism of the Brexit settlement that HE was in charge of drawing up. Reminds me of the story about a plumber coming round to look at a boiler. He shakes his head and asks the customer "What fucking cowboy installed this?" The customer replies. "It was you".

 

 

 

ETA: Just noticed that some fanny red dotted me for posting the opinion piece. No good deed goes unpunished as they say. 

Aye, I don’t agree with what he says about it being anti-English either.

The trend of constantly labelling things anti-this or that, a phobia or an ‘ist’ is largely disingenuous IMO.

Also, as you rightly say, the Tories won’t be defeating the SNP.  Certainly not in our lifetimes anyway.

I don’t think Frost was entirely culpable when it came to the Brexit settlement.  Having obsessed over the NI protocol (I know), the impression I get is that he was boxed into a corner due to May’s previous actions, with many decisions also having been made by Gove.

There was a YouTube video I watched about it a while back which was quite the eye opener.

As for being red dotted by fannies.. welcome to my world

Edited August 19, 2022 by Duries Air Freshener

[Suspect Device]

6 minutes ago, Duries Air Freshener said:

Aye, I don’t agree with what he says about it being anti-English either.

The trend of constantly labelling things anti-this or that, a phobia or an ‘ist’ is largely disingenuous IMO.

Also, as you rightly say, the Tories won’t be defeating the SNP.  Certainly not in our lifetimes anyway.

I don’t think Frost was entirely culpable when it came to the Brexit settlement.  Having obsessed over the NI protocol (I know), the impression I get is that he was boxed into a corner due to May’s previous actions, with many decisions also having been made by Gove.

There was a YouTube video I watched about it a while back which was quite the eye opener.

As for being red dotted by fannies.. welcome to my world

 

To be honest you don't deserve it every time but you do deserve it most times. 

[Big Rider]

I love how Lord Frosts real concern about the breakup of the UK was that the Germans, French and everyone else really, would continue to point and laugh at shrivelled Little Britain. Whit a riddy for him.

[williemillersmoustache]

8 minutes ago, Big Rider said:

I love how Lord Frosts real concern about the breakup of the UK was that the Germans, French and everyone else really, would continue to point and laugh at shrivelled Little Britain. Whit a riddy for him.

"The UK would be humiliated on the world stage" 

Where've ye been Dave?

[BFTD]

1 hour ago, TheScarf said:

It's a weird one, I see a lot of 'fack off you facking freelaowding jock cants, we pay for yaow' on Twitter.  But in the next breath they're waving Union flags.  Make your mind up lads.

A heady mix of Essex and Brummie there. Sad if we've become unpopular in the classier parts of England.

[Billy Jean King]

I love how Lord Frosts real concern about the breakup of the UK was that the Germans, French and everyone else really, would continue to point and laugh at shrivelled Little Britain. Whit a riddy for him.

This, it seems more about "saving face" than anything else now as they have it in their mind that us walking would be some sort of massive embarrassment to what's left of the UK.