When will indyref2 happen?

[Duries Air Freshener]

3 hours ago, The_Kincardine said:

Not often a bishop talks sense so well done the Bish of Blackburn.  He's clearly been reading my posts.

Partition is a whole-nation issue.

 

Precisely.

Only letting the Scottish electorate decide whether partition takes place would be incredibly unfair in our Union of Equals.

[Patrick Noubissie]

On 22/06/2022 at 14:39, oaksoft said:

And independence won't fix it.

The SNP are driven by independence for the sake of independence.

They are asking for power but present absolutely no vision of what they want to do with that power.

It's power for the sake of power.

It's all about being anti-Tory but not really being pro-anything else.

On one side you've got lefties pretending to be on the side of the poor saying Tory c***s are to blame for everything and on the other you have Tories saying workshy scum are the root of our problems. It's blame, blame, blame and the extremists on both sides lap it up like ice-cream on a hot day. This thread is a great example of it. It's just wall-to-wall screeching, virtue signalling, worthless shite.

George Orwell was right. The left are just as scummy as the Tories. Both are just using the poorest on society to win power and when they get that power they do f**k all to solve the problems of those at the bottom.

I don't think these two things are close to equivalent in terms of extreme positions. The Tories are in power more often that and whenever they are, their peers enrich themselves through cronyism while wages stagnate and inequality increases. There are literally zero credible arguments for society ills being caused by workshy scum, to rival the hard data about what Conservative rule means for average people's standard of living. If I stump my toe and blame it on the Tories, it's an extreme position - but blaming them for how the country is run is a pretty reasonable point of view imo.

I do actually agree with some of your points about the SNP and independence. I've generally supported both for most of my life but we're at the point where being slightly better than the Tories doesn't hold up as an impressive track record for the former. I'm slightly concerned that after 15 years in charge, the SNP have run out of steam when it comes to long term strategy. If this campaign does go ahead, there will need to be some fresh voices involved (not Alba).

[HeartsOfficialMoaner]

11 minutes ago, Duries Air Freshener said:

Precisely.

Only letting the Scottish electorate decide whether partition takes place would be incredibly unfair in our Union of Equals.

The English electorate will be happy to get rid of us.

[D Angelo Barksdale]

Not sure if holding up unelected, theocratic peers is the win you guys are looking for when we're on the subject of what is and isn't democratic tbqfh

[G51]

3 hours ago, The_Kincardine said:

Not often a bishop talks sense so well done the Bish of Blackburn.  He's clearly been reading my posts.

Partition is a whole-nation issue.

 

The irony of listening to an Anglican - an Anglican - lecturing a proud Presbyterian nation on democracy is not lost on me. 

Whatever next? The Papacy telling us we should elect our head of state?

[Salt n Vinegar]

6 hours ago, Duries Air Freshener said:

The matter is settled, just like with partition.

I don't know if I should break it to you but you appear to have stated there that the Westminster parliament is not as sovereign as it thinks it is. A manifesto driven general election result to instruct a government to rejoin the EU must not under any circumstances be followed up? Wow. Nice one.

Jacob Reed-Mogg woul be appalled. His nanny would have to administer what Bercow would refer to as a "medicament".

[Duries Air Freshener]

5 minutes ago, Salt n Vinegar said:

I don't know if I should break it to you but you appear to have stated there that the Westminster parliament is not as sovereign as it thinks it is. A manifesto driven general election result to instruct a government to rejoin the EU must not under any circumstances be followed up? Wow. Nice one.

Jacob Reed-Mogg woul be appalled. His nanny would have to administer what Bercow would refer to as a "medicament".

Not at all - Westminster is indeed sovereign.

That doesn't mean we have continuous rerun of referendums though.

I'm sure Jacob would agree with my stance.

[DeeTillEhDeh]

Thanks, bud.  I know that you're a fan.
I pay little attention to wee Douglas so it would be wrong of me to comment.  Plus, I am interested in [mention=62256]Dons_1988[/mention]'s case for constitutional independence irrespective of economic gains or losses.  

It's never been an economic argument for me - I've said before that the Scottish economy can be successful in or out the union. The economic arguments are often overplayed by both sides of the debate.

Poltically, I am not instinctively a nationalist but a federalist - but thanks to the Labour Party that is just a pipedream. We have an asymmetric union of 4 nations where one dominates the other 3 and the other 3 have to suck it up.

Brexit was the final straw for me - not the actual Leave vote but the shenanigans afterwards. Labour sitting on the fence, the Tories pandering to their extremists and the concerns of the 3 nations just completely ignored. Why on a 52-48 vote were we getting driven by the Tory Right towards a Hard Brexit?

We now have a government that increasingly sticks 2 fingers up to the rule of law - if they break the law they just try and change the law to try and make themselves untouchable. It's a government that's rooted in nasty racist populism. Not that Labour are any better - too busy being bland or Tory lite.

I used to be one of those people who said I couldn't support independence because it would separate the working class of Scotland from the those in the rest of the UK. Two elections and a one Brexit vote later and I'm of the view that the working class in Scotland owe nothing to the racist fuckwits who keep voting for the Tories.

I genuinely believe we have a democratic deficit in this country - a federalist structure with a democratic voting system could have prevented the worst exceses - but it won't happen because neither Labour or the Tories want it to happen. The only solution for me is independence.

[Salt n Vinegar]

13 minutes ago, Duries Air Freshener said:

Not at all - Westminster is indeed sovereign.

That doesn't mean we have continuous rerun of referendums though.

I'm sure Jacob would agree with my stance.

No. You have just apparently confirmed that Parliament is not sovereign as it apparently should not be allowed to carry out the democratically expressed view of its electorate. Not even a good try. You have conflated your personal opinion with a potential expressed view of the parties and the electorate. Nanny would be appalled! Good night. I trust your butler provides brekky to your satisfaction.

[GTee]

On 16/06/2022 at 18:41, Jeff Venom said:

Scotland must be the only resource-rich country on the planet where everything positive about the place is a massive burden.

The conflation of independence with SNP, Sturgeon, Salmond, might be worse off, currency, Royalty etc etc is pretty much a lame excuse not to vote for it. Who cares for any of that. Scotland would clearly develop and plod on like every other country on the planet. Nobody knows how we'd get on, but my guess is, we'd be just fine.

[Duries Air Freshener]

18 minutes ago, Salt n Vinegar said:

No. You have just apparently confirmed that Parliament is not sovereign as it apparently should not be allowed to carry out the democratically expressed view of its electorate. Not even a good try. You have conflated your personal opinion with a potential expressed view of the parties and the electorate. Nanny would be appalled! Good night. I trust your butler provides brekky to your satisfaction.

I confirmed nothing of the sort!

You're putting words in my mouth.  Not once did I say Westminster shouldn't be allowed to carry out the democratically expressed view of it's electorate.

[The_Kincardine]

1 hour ago, G51 said:

The irony of listening to an Anglican - an Anglican - lecturing a proud Presbyterian nation on democracy is not lost on me. 

Whatever next? The Papacy telling us we should elect our head of state?

I have a hefty wager that it is, really.  Certainly, Calvin's Geneva - where John Knox learned his trade - was a Theocracy ruled over by John Calvin and Theodore Beza and where there was almost no divide between civic and religious law .  Maybe that's just French Presbyterians for you.

But no.  When Knox returned to Scotland he was determined to make sure the nation was Presbyterian and that secular authority was secondary to the authority of God.  See his Book of Discipline of the Presbyterian Church in Scotland.  Andrew Melville - Knox's bag carrier was equally 'on message' standing up to Jaz VI with the famous, "There is Christ Jesus, the King of the Church, whose subject James the Sixth is, and of whose kingdom he is not a king, nor a lord, nor a head, but a member.".  Sounds sort-of democratic until you remember that it was Knox and Melville who held the church in Scotland by the throat.

Knox often railed against secular authority - especially when Mary was QoS and her cousin, Elizabeth was QoE.  Hence, The First Blast of the Trumpet Against the Monstruous Regiment of Women.

So Presbyterianism - at its roots - was authoritarian, theocratic and misogynistic.  I doubt the Bishop of Bradford is any of these.

 

[git-intae-thum]

3 minutes ago, The_Kincardine said:

I have a hefty wager that it is, really.  Certainly, Calvin's Geneva - where John Knox learned his trade - was a Theocracy ruled over by John Calvin and Theodore Beza and where there was almost no divide between civic and religious law .  Maybe that's just French Presbyterians for you.

But no.  When Knox returned to Scotland he was determined to make sure the nation was Presbyterian and that secular authority was secondary to the authority of God.  See his Book of Discipline of the Presbyterian Church in Scotland.  Andrew Melville - Knox's bag carrier was equally 'on message' standing up to Jaz VI with the famous, "There is Christ Jesus, the King of the Church, whose subject James the Sixth is, and of whose kingdom he is not a king, nor a lord, nor a head, but a member.".  Sounds sort-of democratic until you remember that it was Knox and Melville who held the church in Scotland by the throat.

Knox often railed against secular authority - especially when Mary was QoS and her cousin, Elizabeth was QoE.  Hence, The First Blast of the Trumpet Against the Monstruous Regiment of Women.

So Presbyterianism - at its roots - was authoritarian, theocratic and misogynistic.  

 

A schism by goodness?

7 minutes ago, The_Kincardine said:

 I doubt the Bishop of Bradford is any of these.

 

Probably not....... But he is just another unelected self entitled windbag who should have no relevance to the people of Scotland.

The fact that as an Anglican lord spiritual he does hold political power over our affairs speaks for itself.

The UK is joined by of a small select catalogue of countries in the world these days that allow unelected religious leaders political control over the populace.

More to the point.......Scotland is the only nation in the world that is forced to allow religious leaders of a foreign denomination political control over it's affairs.

Get them tae.....

[The_Kincardine]

1 hour ago, DeeTillEhDeh said:

 

 

It's never been an economic argument for me - I've said before that the Scottish economy can be successful in or out the union. The economic arguments are often overplayed by both sides of the debate.

Poltically, I am not instinctively a nationalist but a federalist - but thanks to the Labour Party that is just a pipedream. We have an asymmetric union of 4 nations where one dominates the other 3 and the other 3 have to suck it up.

Brexit was the final straw for me - not the actual Leave vote but the shenanigans afterwards. Labour sitting on the fence, the Tories pandering to their extremists and the concerns of the 3 nations just completely ignored. Why on a 52-48 vote were we getting driven by the Tory Right towards a Hard Brexit?

We now have a government that increasingly sticks 2 fingers up to the rule of law - if they break the law they just try and change the law to try and make themselves untouchable. It's a government that's rooted in nasty racist populism. Not that Labour are any better - too busy being bland or Tory lite.

I used to be one of those people who said I couldn't support independence because it would separate the working class of Scotland from the those in the rest of the UK. Two elections and a one Brexit vote later and I'm of the view that the working class in Scotland owe nothing to the racist fuckwits who keep voting for the Tories.

I genuinely believe we have a democratic deficit in this country - a federalist structure with a democratic voting system could have prevented the worst exceses - but it won't happen because neither Labour or the Tories want it to happen. The only solution for me is independence.

 

I am with you as far as 1. Brexit was an horrendous idea and 2. Boris's government is a travesty.  The sooner he and it go the happier I will be.

I disagree with you that the solution is to ensure a bloke from Gretna should have to cross an international border to go to his work in Carlisle.  That is a madness.

1.  Scotland is neither a social nor a political homogeneity.  Neither is England.  This is stating the obvious.  After 300+ years of being one nation the country that Scotland most resembles is England.  We are, in pretty much every respect, mirror images of each other.

2. Brexit was a product of small-minded 'me first' ignorance with a glazing of racism.  Scexit is a almost identical.  I have said before that barely the gable end of a Rizla can separate Brexit and Scexit supporters and i stand by this.

3. Scotland does NOT have a democratic deficit.  What it has had - for 15 years - is a regional administration which has singularly ignored the day job -  to make Scotland better.  Being FM of Scotland should be the easiest job in world politics.  You have a small population who are mostly compliant and supportive and you have a prosperous group in London and the SE who will fund you to the tune of £2,000 pppa to help you do it.  Instead, Scotland's last two FMs have ignored the devolved areas of health, education, transport and local government in order to pursue the 'partition' agenda.  To the neglect of their prime responsibility.

4.  The problems of Britain - a. a sense of injustice and inequality. b. a sense that one's voice is not heard. c. a government that looks to themselves rather than 'us' and d. a complete lack of morality and respect from the governors to the governed - are true at UK level and also at a Scottish level.  It is sad how HR has the same incompetence and mendacity as WM.  Sad but not surprising as we are, after all, the same people from Thurso to Truro.

Partition will address none of the above.

 

 

[The_Kincardine]

33 minutes ago, git-intae-thum said:

Scotland is the only nation in the world that is forced to allow religious leaders of a foreign denomination political control over it's affairs.

That was the finely balanced quid pro quo that the Scots and English commissioners of the Treaty of Union came up with and to which the Parliaments of Scotland and England gave their assent.

Scotland kept its legal system and its national Kirk.  England kept its bishops.

Seems pretty reasonable all round.

[git-intae-thum]

21 minutes ago, The_Kincardine said:

 

Seems pretty reasonable all round.

I assume you forgot to add.....in the early 18th century

[Lex]

The answer is still the same as it was in page one of this thread:
Never.

[BFTD]

This thread will almost double in size when all the "there will never be another IndyRef!" posts get re-quoted.

It'll be pointless too, as the authors will all take a long sabbatical, like normal. Not a decent meltdown to be seen.

[Zern]

It's not happening. Specifically not happening in 2023. More specifically not in October 2023. The budget for the campaign? That not happenin... actually that happened. Fair play. But that doesn't matter. Because Scottish laws are mickey mouse laws or something. That announcement last week that definitely didn't happen or did it? With or without, absolutely 100% cannot happen. And if it does, that's just smokescreen or something. She's a unionist really.

It's all a wheeze!

Next week we'll get more details in the Scottish Parliament. If it happens. Which it will.

 

[Kenneth840]

On 18/06/2022 at 20:32, Duries Air Freshener said:

My belief is that Sturgeon’s being both controlled and protected.

It would explain the Murrells coming out of Salmondgate clean, Penfold looking relaxed at the inquiry as if he was reading off something, the injunction rumour, not chasing the supermajority, woman H not being done for perjury, Cherry being sidelined and NS never doing anything meaningful to achieve independence.

What’s the point in having intelligence services if they aren’t used when there’s a threat of part of the country breaking away?

I think she’s an incredible actress.

MI5 wouldn't be doing their job if they weren't used against pro Independence parties.  They done it in Northern Ireland and I would be very surprised if they haven't been at work in Scotland for many years.