When will indyref2 happen?

[effeffsee_the2nd]

21 hours ago, welshbairn said:

And it would receive zero International recognition, like the Catalan one. If it's a lawful and binding referendum within the constitution then boycott away, of course.

This is 100% the situation we are in,  no formal legally binding referendum but the SNP decide f**k it we'll have one anyway = union parties boycott the vote, Yes win with 85 % on a 40 % turn out and it ends up in a farce like Catalonia, No one would recognize us internationally if we tried to declare. 

The fact that no legal referendum will be permitted is the only reason sturgeon is even talking about one.  There's a lot of numpties in the party membership who are demanding one now who have to be appeased, but to even be thinking about calling a serious one, you'd have to have support consistently polling higher than 60 % which we are nowhere near. Even a narrow win wouldn't do, it would only result in a brexit style farce with such a chunk of the electorate unhappy.

By calling a vote knowing it won't go ahead she can appease the numpties whilst claiming her hands are tied. only danger is if more patient indy supporters get fed up with the cycle and vote for somebody else or lose interest altogether.  

[carpetmonster]

 

[Dan Steele]

Nice irony having Murdo, the serial loser, talk about all the things UK will lose. "Lose" ffs, the imperial mindset lives on.

[Albus Bulbasaur]

Shocked and astounded nobody wants to discuss the Twitter link Ervin posted. 

[Duries Air Freshener]

4 minutes ago, Albus Bulbasaur said:

Shocked and astounded nobody wants to discuss the Twitter link Ervin posted. 

I read the whole article.. bit of an eye opener.

Shafi is a clever guy and spot on in many respects.

[Salt n Vinegar]

21 minutes ago, Albus Bulbasaur said:

Shocked and astounded nobody wants to discuss the Twitter link Ervin posted. 

Shocked and astounded that Fraser keeps using "we" when saying "we" would lose... 

Presumably the "we" he refers to for the most part would be rUK. It seems tobe a case of 'f Scotland, look at what "we" would lose - land, energy, territorial waters, fish". 

[Albus Bulbasaur]

1 minute ago, Salt n Vinegar said:

Shocked and astounded that Fraser keeps using "we" when saying "we" would lose... 

Presumably the "we" he refers to for the most part would be rUK. It seems tobe a case of 'f Scotland, look at what "we" would lose - land, energy, territorial waters, fish". 

You're looking at the wrong tweet. 

Sometimes embedded tweets shows as others, perhaps refresh your screen, the tweet is a link to a breakdown of the state of play from an Indy supporter who's laid his position out very clearly and methodically, not Murdo Fraser sound bites from Twitter...  

[Kenneth840]

On 17/06/2022 at 00:11, Zern said:

That's not every year is it?

They were promising one for 2020. That got derailed by COVID. They said they would shelve it until we were through.

Which we are.

Question is, for those who disagree with even having a referendum, unless UK tells you it is ok, is what happens if it is ruled legal by the courts but is still opposed by the UK government.

Boycott or participate?

The covid lockdown was the perfect time to do online campaigning.  We could have been working out the answers to the questions that many have, instead we were told that the independence campaign was on hold. 

On 17/06/2022 at 10:47, Albus Bulbasaur said:

It's 2022 ffs surely people can have sex with the flag that they want.

No. It depends on whether it has a spectrum of colour. 

5 hours ago, Albus Bulbasaur said:

Superb read. 

Sensibly covered pretty much every essential point. 

My two stand out lines.

"They have been told the firing gun has been shot, but left on a battleground with nothing but the remnants of the last war they lost. "

"You’ll also miss out on the circular economy built around the independence Groundhog Day."

This is how I feel.  I feel that the Yes movement is about to repeat the mistakes of 2014. If there is some secret plan, then surely to f**k let the door knockers know. 

5 hours ago, effeffsee_the2nd said:

This is 100% the situation we are in,  no formal legally binding referendum but the SNP decide f**k it we'll have one anyway = union parties boycott the vote, Yes win with 85 % on a 40 % turn out and it ends up in a farce like Catalonia, No one would recognize us internationally if we tried to declare. 

The fact that no legal referendum will be permitted is the only reason sturgeon is even talking about one.  There's a lot of numpties in the party membership who are demanding one now who have to be appeased, but to even be thinking about calling a serious one, you'd have to have support consistently polling higher than 60 % which we are nowhere near. Even a narrow win wouldn't do, it would only result in a brexit style farce with such a chunk of the electorate unhappy.

By calling a vote knowing it won't go ahead she can appease the numpties whilst claiming her hands are tied. only danger is if more patient indy supporters get fed up with the cycle and vote for somebody else or lose interest altogether.  

We can have a referendum if we choose to.  The problem is that most Scots think that they are different to other nations. I guess you know that all referendums are advisory, the brexit one was only enforced (right word?) because it was the view of a majority.  As I type this I cannot remember the exact number/percentage brexit vote.  

This is why I prefer the plebiscite election vote.  ALL independence parties stand on a mandate of declaring independence if there is a majority elected to government.  Yes it is UDI.  What else is a declaration of independence.  BFTD, we are going to have to unilaterally declare independence at some point! There has to be confrontation with the British state if we are to be independent.  

My thinking is Nicola Sturgeon is doing this because she/her/it needs to be showing to do something to satisfy her core voters.  But she has forgotten many of them are women and wont accept the GRA reform. It will cost us dear. 

1 hour ago, Snafu said:

Last chance for Independence?

When did it become last chance?

Surely in 25 years another chance will come along.

Should they not mean last chance to see Independence in our life time, jeez you'd think the world revolves around certain people of a certain age?

 

I think that if the referendum 2023 goes ahead, it will kill it for years.  We have not prepared for it.  Neither has the SNP, this shows with their rushed through brochure. 

[welshbairn]

1 hour ago, Kenneth840 said:

I think that if the referendum 2023 goes ahead, it will kill it for years.  We have not prepared for it.  Neither has the SNP, this shows with their rushed through brochure. 

It's just the first in a series, the meat will come later on.

[Zern]

They've even made sure to budget for what is coming.

[BFTD]

Kenneth, you ready to admit that you think violent protest is the way to independence?

Just curious, as you dodged admitting your position on UDI and genitals for months, and I'd like to know if I'm three-for-three here.

[Albus Bulbasaur]

1 hour ago, welshbairn said:

It's just the first in a series, the meat will come later on.

When's the meat coming? Have they set out a time frame for the detail coming out? 

[welshbairn]

14 minutes ago, Albus Bulbasaur said:

When's the meat coming? Have they set out a time frame for the detail coming out? 

Nope, just over the next few months. Tactically I think it's quite astute, gives the SNP some control over the media and political agenda, instead of a big white paper to defend on multiple points simultaneously. It also allows voters to digest and evaluate each part on its own merits rather a big jumble of issues usually chosen by the opposition, in the media and politics.

Edited June 18, 2022 by welshbairn

[Zern]

It also brings new media focus for every paper being announced, sustaining the conversation over the referendum and independence in general.

[Duries Air Freshener]

3 hours ago, Kenneth840 said:

The covid lockdown was the perfect time to do online campaigning.  We could have been working out the answers to the questions that many have, instead we were told that the independence campaign was on hold. 

No. It depends on whether it has a spectrum of colour. 

This is how I feel.  I feel that the Yes movement is about to repeat the mistakes of 2014. If there is some secret plan, then surely to f**k let the door knockers know. 

We can have a referendum if we choose to.  The problem is that most Scots think that they are different to other nations. I guess you know that all referendums are advisory, the brexit one was only enforced (right word?) because it was the view of a majority.  As I type this I cannot remember the exact number/percentage brexit vote.  

This is why I prefer the plebiscite election vote.  ALL independence parties stand on a mandate of declaring independence if there is a majority elected to government.  Yes it is UDI.  What else is a declaration of independence.  BFTD, we are going to have to unilaterally declare independence at some point! There has to be confrontation with the British state if we are to be independent.  

My thinking is Nicola Sturgeon is doing this because she/her/it needs to be showing to do something to satisfy her core voters.  But she has forgotten many of them are women and wont accept the GRA reform. It will cost us dear. 

I think that if the referendum 2023 goes ahead, it will kill it for years.  We have not prepared for it.  Neither has the SNP, this shows with their rushed through brochure. 

My belief is that Sturgeon’s being both controlled and protected.

It would explain the Murrells coming out of Salmondgate clean, Penfold looking relaxed at the inquiry as if he was reading off something, the injunction rumour, not chasing the supermajority, woman H not being done for perjury, Cherry being sidelined and NS never doing anything meaningful to achieve independence.

What’s the point in having intelligence services if they aren’t used when there’s a threat of part of the country breaking away?

I think she’s an incredible actress.

[Albus Bulbasaur]

51 minutes ago, welshbairn said:

Nope, just over the next few months. Tactically I think it's quite astute, gives the SNP some control over the media and political agenda, instead of a big white paper to defend on multiple points simultaneously. It also allows voters to digest and evaluate each part on its own merits rather a big jumble of issues usually chosen by the opposition, in the media and politics.

Perhaps, I can't recall where but was reading an interesting article this morning about the timing being an apparant issue with regards to actually getting the relevant stuff through parliament to hold one whatever method they choose for when they've said they will. 

I agree about the strategy behind dropping all your plans at the same time but it could also come across as a bit "trust me". They evidently need to seriously impress people or convince then on the major issues, pertinently the economic argument needs to be made with enough time for people to digest it and come on board. If not it comes across as quite Brexity and sentimental which I don't think will help with the few undecided voters we have. 

[git-intae-thum]

15 hours ago, Ervin H Burrell said:

 

 

13 hours ago, Albus Bulbasaur said:

Superb read. 

Sensibly covered pretty much every essential point. 

My two stand out lines.

"They have been told the firing gun has been shot, but left on a battleground with nothing but the remnants of the last war they lost. "

"You’ll also miss out on the circular economy built around the independence Groundhog Day."

 

10 hours ago, Albus Bulbasaur said:

Shocked and astounded nobody wants to discuss the Twitter link Ervin posted. 

Ermm.......it's not discussed because Jonathan Shafi, whilst being an intelligent man, is a political blogger with no political responsibility.

More so.....he does not question the substance of Scottish independence which he correctly concludes will be long term beneficial to us all. The article he has written questions the strategy of attainment....which is a perfectly legitimate point to debate.

However:

10 hours ago, carpetmonster said:

 

in contrast .....Murdo Fraser is probably not an intelligent man as he has let the cat out the bag for you lot yet again.

However, in contrast to Shafi he does have political responsibility being the leader of the UK government in Scotland.......and he has completely f@cked your argument.

In his interview above, intended for the wider UK audience (not for folk in Scotland cos obviously naebody here watches GB news), he makes the case for Scottish independence better than any yes campaigner.

He tells the rest of the UK exactly what they stand to lose when Scotland becomes independent. The inverse understandably being what we will gain.

This....from the leader of the UK gov party in Scotland. Car crashing the unionist argument.....even before the start of any campaign.

Poor man.....Watch his eyes when the interviewer infers the rest of the UK might want rid of us.

......btw listen to his use of "we".....interesting insight into the unionist mindset.

 

 

[git-intae-thum]

Here is a full clip of the interview lest anyone dispute.

Oh dear.

 

[Benjamin_Nevis]

On 17/06/2022 at 12:16, Anonapersona said:

It's been quite sad watching Detournement shift ever further to the right.

Predictable though, seeing as most folk aren't bothering a f**k with the Covid thread, he needs something else to gain maximum attention.

[Albus Bulbasaur]

9 hours ago, git-intae-thum said:

 

 

Ermm.......it's not discussed because Jonathan Shafi, whilst being an intelligent man, is a political blogger with no political responsibility.

 

Lmao, I stopped here considering the amount of time that goes towards what randoms on Twitter and grifting journalists talk about. Your reasoning isn't strong. You've missed the bigger reason it's barely been mentioned and people are keen to move on and laugh at a stupid politican being stupid.