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When will indyref2 happen?


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Indyref2  

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16 minutes ago, williemillersmoustache said:

This is a very brave and valiant attempt you're making but the UK and EU aren't the same and the differences I've shown prove that.

Also, and this is something I have some experience of. The benefits of FOM are absolutely 2 way. And far better when covered by treaty obligations which define the rights of the individual. Rather than goodwill/hopeful assumptions. 

With all due respect, your "differences" amounted to freedom of movement and goods (which the UK has), regulatory standards (which are closely aligned, and we would almost certainly follow the BS equivalents anyway post-independence) and the ability to leave, which isn't really a reason to join anything.

Have said before that I'm in favour of independence as a stepping stone to further devolution/independence for rural areas. I don't see why an independent Scotland would need to rejoin the EU.

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47 minutes ago, williemillersmoustache said:

YOUS WID HUV TAE HUV RA URO

INDEPENDENCE JIST ESSENNPEE OBSESSION 

EU JIST THA SAME AS UK

WHIT ABOOT SPAIN

SOMETHING SOMETHING THE QUEEN

Great to see it lads. See you on the campaign trail. 

Super smashing great!

Even before the announcement we had professor Jim Gallagher comparing Ruth Wishart, Ruth Wishart for goodness sake, to the worst of the brexity britnats and this morning someone very shouty being rationally out debated by Lesley Riddoch.

The lashing out, as evidenced here, has a fetid and primaeval desperation that is so unattractive.

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6 minutes ago, G51 said:

With all due respect, your "differences" amounted to freedom of movement and goods (which the UK has), regulatory standards (which are closely aligned, and we would almost certainly follow the BS equivalents anyway post-independence) and the ability to leave, which isn't really a reason to join anything.

Have said before that I'm in favour of independence as a stepping stone to further devolution/independence for rural areas. I don't see why an independent Scotland would need to rejoin the EU.

Is want and need different? Would we need to? Maybe not. Would we want to, yes. Yes we would. 

And yes the voluntary nature of the EU, is a good thing. It is indicative of its nature and in stark contrast to the UK. 

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3 minutes ago, williemillersmoustache said:

Is want and need different? Would we need to? Maybe not. Would we want to, yes. Yes we would. 

And yes the voluntary nature of the EU, is a good thing. It is indicative of its nature and in stark contrast to the UK. 

Don't see it, and certainly don't see why we would voluntarily cede our newly-acquired economic levers, which could be used to achieve real change, simply in order to join the EU.

The idea that leaving the EU is easy and straightforward compared to the UK doesn't really hold up to any scrutiny. Ask the Greeks.

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2 minutes ago, G51 said:

Don't see it, and certainly don't see why we would voluntarily cede our newly-acquired economic levers, which could be used to achieve real change, simply in order to join the EU.

The idea that leaving the EU is easy and straightforward compared to the UK doesn't really hold up to any scrutiny. Ask the Greeks.

I'm not an expert on Greek politics but the ridiculous corruption is probably an issue here. 

Again though we're debating the pros and cons of a single admittedly important choice we as iScot will be able to make which we cannot do now. I look forward to having these debates but the crux of where our exchange started that the EU and UK are the same or similar, is not true in concept, design or application. 

And it is many of those differences that I find so appealing. 

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I'm a bit bemused by the idea that there was any kind of "indyref announcement" today.

The campaign, such as it is, has been launched and re-launched about 6 (conservative estimate) times since 2016.

But there's no date.

It's still "make the case", which Sturgeon has been saying needs to be done the whole time. I am not disagreeing that a case needs to be made, more that anything said today was any kind of significant leap forward.

How is it going to happen? She previously indicated she would not engage in any "wildcat referendums" (a term I think was a lot of bollocks for her to use, but she's painted herself into a corner by doing so, so that now any moves to go without S30 will be thrown back in her face as "wildcat", even though a non-s30 ref would be as binding as the Brexit one in law, i.e. consultative and not at all binding, but politically difficult to ignore).

To be clear, I'm someone who's voting Yes (or for independence through any other voting mechanism) just as soon as I get the chance, but I don't see anything today that tells me that I am going to any time soon. It just sounded like more of Sturgeon's rhetoric - indeed we heard the (fair enough) comparisons with the Nordics, Malta, Austria, Denmark etc etc years ago when that Growth Commission carry on was unveiled.

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10 minutes ago, williemillersmoustache said:

I'm not an expert on Greek politics but the ridiculous corruption is probably an issue here. 

Again though we're debating the pros and cons of a single admittedly important choice we as iScot will be able to make which we cannot do now. I look forward to having these debates but the crux of where our exchange started that the EU and UK are the same or similar, is not true in concept, design or application. 

And it is many of those differences that I find so appealing. 

Corruption? I assume you mean the corruption of the Commission interfering in Greek elections and then enforcing bailout terms that were significantly harsher than the ones Greek voters rejected weeks earlier?

I know I'm going on about this a bit, but it annoys me that people see the EU as some benevolent, undeniable force for good. It's no different than any other world power. And if the idea of Scottish independence is that we swap the UK for the EU, then we've fucked it.

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Just now, G51 said:

Corruption? I assume you mean the corruption of the Commission interfering in Greek elections and then enforcing bailout terms that were significantly harsher than the ones Greek voters rejected weeks earlier?

I know I'm going on about this a bit, but it annoys me that people see the EU as some benevolent, undeniable force for good. It's no different than any other world power. And if the idea of Scottish independence is that we swap the UK for the EU, then we've fucked it.

No. I don't mean that. 

I can see you're getting annoyed tho, so I'll stop batting away all the little strawmen you're erecting and look forward to this debate when we're independent and you can tell me how the EU is the same as China, or any other world power at your leisure, and vote not to join should you wish. 

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21 minutes ago, Eddie Hitler said:

I'm a bit bemused by the idea that there was any kind of "indyref announcement" today.

The campaign, such as it is, has been launched and re-launched about 6 (conservative estimate) times since 2016.

But there's no date.

It's still "make the case", which Sturgeon has been saying needs to be done the whole time. I am not disagreeing that a case needs to be made, more that anything said today was any kind of significant leap forward.

How is it going to happen? She previously indicated she would not engage in any "wildcat referendums" (a term I think was a lot of bollocks for her to use, but she's painted herself into a corner by doing so, so that now any moves to go without S30 will be thrown back in her face as "wildcat", even though a non-s30 ref would be as binding as the Brexit one in law, i.e. consultative and not at all binding, but politically difficult to ignore).

To be clear, I'm someone who's voting Yes (or for independence through any other voting mechanism) just as soon as I get the chance, but I don't see anything today that tells me that I am going to any time soon. It just sounded like more of Sturgeon's rhetoric - indeed we heard the (fair enough) comparisons with the Nordics, Malta, Austria, Denmark etc etc years ago when that Growth Commission carry on was unveiled.

There was a  lot more emphasis this time on going without one - in a lawful manner. Work/Advice to be presented to Scottish Parliament before Summer recess.

That was the most significant element in the speech for me.

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1 minute ago, renton said:

There was a  lot more emphasis this time on going without one - in a lawful manner. Work/Advice to be presented to Scottish Parliament before Summer recess.

That was the most significant element in the speech for me.

Yes, I accept that and that it has also been floated more in recent days.

However, she in essence has been saying she would not do that for years now and went along with the terminology of calling it "wildcat".

I'd like to think she'd stick that in the rear view if opponents tried to use it against her but I am really not convinced of that; hers is a government that tries to avoid negative publicity at all costs and whether oppo are willing to let the chance to throw "but you said no wildcat referendums!" back in her face is out of her control, so I could see her characteristic caution and apparent unwillingness to upset even her political enemies (beyond occasionally telling us that the Tories are bad) holding sway.

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We're forgetting. Russian subs sailing up the Firth of Forth. Armed border crossings.  No more EastEnders. The return of 4 holidays skint nurse, Question time Billy on speed dial. 15 frigates. More Yoon plants than the beachgrove garden. The return of Manky Jaiket. The heads gone when labour split and Dugdale supports independence. Prince Andrew touring schools expressing his love......for the union. Galloway landing at Prestwick in a spitfire with a cigar and a half and half Celtic and Rangers tap. Canny wait It's going to be a laugh.

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2 hours ago, Dawson Park Boy said:

For as long as I can remember, the SNP have been promising thousands and thousands of green jobs.

Where are they? The vast majority are overseas. Nothing to do with being in the Union.

What s going to change?

Offshore wind sector 'will employ almost 100,000 by 2030' - Business Insider

By coincidence, this popped up on my twitter feed today.

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5 minutes ago, Crazy Days said:

In her foreword she states "Independence in itself does not guarantee success for any country."  That's bound to bring on board the undecided.

The undecided will share that take, they have to be persuaded that independence offers a better chance of success than remaining shackled to a UK seemingly committed to self harm and international pariah status.

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