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When will indyref2 happen?


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Indyref2  

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39 minutes ago, Rugbypark said:

 


Very true. The economic case would destroy the nationalists in any referendum. No credible planning at all.

 

Like how the economic argument and a lack of credible planning destroyed the UK nationalists in the 2016 referendum? 

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12 minutes ago, Scott Steiner said:

When will indyref2 happen?  Not in my lifetime, and I'm only in my 30s.

Brexit will fade into distant memory as businesses adjust to a changed economic dynamic.  It'll become clearer that trident will be kept and that we won't be able to just waltz back into the EU.  The currency issue won't be solved.. why?  Because there's no credible solution.

The 2014 referendum polling showed that whilst the young voted yes and old voted no, we also saw a slowing of independence support as we reached the youngest.  Embarrassingly, my own age group seemed to be worst for wanting this drivel.

It's not seen as edgy or rebellious to want independence anymore.  As time goes on, more and more people are getting bored with it, and there's only so long it can remain relevant.

 

So we'll just allow increasingly far right wing governments at Westminster to carry on telling us what we can and can't do?

And presumably you'll be hoping for King Billy to bi-pass Charles and replace the Queen!

 

 

 

 

Edited by ICTJohnboy
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3 minutes ago, Antlion said:

It takes some amount of brainwashing to consider independence “drivel”, when it’s pretty much the normal state of affairs for European nations. However, I heartily condone the BritNat approach being, “we don’t need to do anything - the idea of Scotland governing itself will just go away by itself” (presumably the way the idea of leaving the EU just faded away from the English consciousness).

**Picks self up following devastating 'brainwashed' jibe**.

Why should we follow the lead of other European nations?  We have more in common historically, culturally, linguistically and of course genetically with our kith and kin in England, Northern Ireland and Wales who ARE in the UK.  I'd rather be with them.  Most European countries are in a Union anyway.. the EU.

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12 minutes ago, ICTJohnboy said:

 

So we just allow increasingly right wing governments at Westminster to continue to tell us what to do?

And presumably you'll be hoping for King Billy to bi-pass Charles and replace the Queen!

Eh?  I'm happy for whatever government we vote for to govern accordingly.  I don't particularly see it as 'telling us what to do'.

A new King Billy would be fantastic.  Who'd you want?  Kate Smurthwaite as Queen presumably?

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25 minutes ago, Scott Steiner said:

**Picks self up following devastating 'brainwashed' jibe**.

Why should we follow the lead of other European nations?  We have more in common historically, culturally, linguistically and of course genetically with our kith and kin in England, Northern Ireland and Wales who ARE in the UK.  I'd rather be with them.  Most European countries are in a Union anyway.. the EU.

Indeed - and you and yours have spent years (and are still) telling us that being in a union is a dreadful thing. To wit:

My starting point is simple. I believe that the decisions which govern all our lives, the laws we must all obey and the taxes we must all pay should be decided by people we choose and who we can throw out if we want change.”

”Laws which govern citizens in this country are decided by politicians from other nations who we never elected and can’t throw out.”

“But by leaving the EU we can take control. Indeed we can show the rest of Europe the way to flourish. Instead of grumbling and complaining about the things we can’t change and growing resentful and bitter, we can shape an optimistic, forward-looking and genuinely internationalist alternative.”

Given the above, said without irony by Michael Gove, I don’t think UK nats have much of a leg to stand on when it comes to claiming that political union is good - especially if their argument is now, “well, we meant it’s only good if Westminster in charge of it and the people involved are “kith and kin”.

Indeed, as for the ethnic “kith and kin” cliche, I have no truck with that particular BritNat brand of nationalism. I have “kith and kin” in France that the UK has recently been saying I shouldn’t want to “be with”, and with whom I have more in common than, say, Boris Johnson. But, unlike you, I’m not an ethnic nationalist. If I was, based on the ridiculous argument you’ve just made, I’d be pressing for Ireland to rejoin the UK and for the USA - with whom we have historical, linguistic, and cultural links - to give up its independence and realise that it should be united with us politically too. Utterly asinine argument. 

Edited by Antlion
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18 minutes ago, Scott Steiner said:

Eh?  I'm happy for whatever government we vote for to govern accordingly.  I don't particularly see it as 'telling us what to do'.

A new King Billy would be fantastic.  Who'd you want?  Kate Smurthwaite as Queen presumably?

Your supine acceptance of literally anything has dwindled from enjoying a majority of c70% down to c50% in a few years, though. Is there no pro-dependence argument in favour of it, or is it generally just a case of “meh - people will come back round to being happy with whatever”?

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Has it ever been edgy or rebellious to support independence or unionism?  :huh:

I didn't get the impression that the youngsters thought about it that way, of either persuasion. Well, most of them.

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1 minute ago, Antlion said:

Indeed - and you and yours have spent year and are still telling us that being in a union is a dreadful things. To wit:

My starting point is simple. I believe that the decisions which govern all our lives, the laws we must all obey and the taxes we must all pay should be decided by people we choose and who we can throw out if we want change.”

”Laws which govern citizens in this country are decided by politicians from other nations who we never elected and can’t throw out.”

“But by leaving the EU we can take control. Indeed we can show the rest of Europe the way to flourish. Instead of grumbling and complaining about the things we can’t change and growing resentful and bitter, we can shape an optimistic, forward-looking and genuinely internationalist alternative.”

Given the above, said without irony by Michael Gove, I don’t think UK nats have much of a leg to stand on when it comes to claiming that political union is good - especially if it’s not “well, we meant it’s only good if Westminster in charge of it and the people involved are “kith and kin”.

Indeed, as for the ethnic “kith and kin” cliche, I have no truck with that particular BritNat brand of nationalism. I have “kith and kin” in France that the UK has recently been saying I shouldn’t want to “be with”, and with whom I have more in common than, say, Boris Johnson. But, unlike you, I’m not an ethnic nationalist. If I was, based on the ridiculous argument you’ve just made, I’d be pressing for Ireland to rejoin the UK and for the USA - with whom we have historical, linguistic, and cultural links - to give up its independence and realise that it should be united with us politically too. Utterly asinine argument. 

Unsure about the UK Nats that you keep bringing up, but I completely agree with Gove's assessment you've quoted.  I've also never stated that Unions are only good if the people involved are our kith and kin.  Where you've got the idea from that I'm an ethnic Nationalist I have no idea.

As for Ireland rejoining the UK - great idea!

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2 minutes ago, BFTD said:

Has it ever been edgy or rebellious to support independence or unionism?  :huh:

I didn't get the impression that the youngsters thought about it that way, of either persuasion. Well, most of them.

You forget that UK Nat thought often still runs in terms of the 18th century. Bally rebels!

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1 minute ago, Anonapersona said:

Were Rangers fans always like this? I know I've been out of the country a long time but I just don't remember them being a bunch of right wing loons.

WTF happened?

This is probably going to sound nasty, but it isn't meant to be.

Their club died. It seems to have radicalised an element of their support.

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Just now, Scott Steiner said:

Unsure about the UK Nats that you keep bringing up, but I completely agree with Gove's assessment you've quoted.  I've also never stated that Unions are only good if the people involved are our kith and kin.  Where you've got the idea from that I'm an ethnic Nationalist I have no idea.

As for Ireland rejoining the UK - great idea!

Nice bit of trolling in bold. I’d love for you to go and try that line in Ireland - or at the least to convince your masters to press it harder. The problem with agreeing with Gove is that he doesn’t agree with himself.

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4 minutes ago, Antlion said:

Your supine acceptance of literally anything has dwindled from enjoying a majority of c70% down to c50% in a few years, though. Is there no pro-dependence argument in favour of it, or is it generally just a case of “meh - people will come back round to being happy with whatever”?

Pro-dependence?  That's something I've never advocated for.  If I'm to answer the question then you'll need to explain what you're on about.

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1 minute ago, BFTD said:

This is probably going to sound nasty, but it isn't meant to be.

Their club died. It seems to have radicalised an element of their support.

And, on P&B, with each new account the urge to go hard before the ban hammer hits again results in more extremism.

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1 minute ago, Scott Steiner said:

Pro-dependence?  That's something I've never advocated for.  If I'm to answer the question then you'll need to explain what you're on about.

I did, several times, to your previous accounts. Amazed you don’t remember, tbh. 

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1 hour ago, Scott Steiner said:

It's not seen as edgy or rebellious to want independence anymore.  

Here's the bit that terrifies folk on the No side, it's seen as normal.

A perfectly legitimate and laudable goal of wanting the people who live in your country to manage its affairs and elect its government.

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1 hour ago, Rugbypark said:

 


Very true. The economic case would destroy the nationalists in any referendum. No credible planning at all.

 

The world runs in economic cycles and small European countries actually handle that rather well. Even the disastrous demise in Iceland and the less severe situation in Ireland, saw them able to respond very quickly grow into recovery.

The British economy is dominated by London and the Southeast of England (it has been since just after WW1 and was heavily subsidised by the "UK Continental Shelf" from the 1970's). That deprives Scotland of the agility required to realise its potential. We can ask our industrial sectors how to help drive our economy forward in a socially responsible manner as new technologies develop, or we can ask them to raise their hands if they've been to Peppa Pig World.

 

 

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2 hours ago, williemillersmoustache said:

Here's the bit that terrifies folk on the No side, it's seen as normal.

A perfectly legitimate and laudable goal of wanting the people who live in your country to manage its affairs and elect its government.

As recently as the start of this century (bizarre as that sounds typing it out), it was seen as a bit of fringe lunacy - the equivalent of independence for Cornwall or UKIP’s desire to leave the EU. It’s pretty remarkable that it’s already now seen as a normal position. It now only seems to be fringe weirdos on the BritNat side who doggedly try and paint all independence supporters as evil separatists and unwashed, untermensch loonies. The irony is that that just makes UK nationalism - especially in light of its demonstrably separatist Brexit - look out of touch with modern Scotland, and desperate to turn back the clock to a time when Jocks knew their place and questioned nothing.

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