SANTAN Posted October 16, 2020 Share Posted October 16, 2020 4 minutes ago, welshbairn said: You must have missed the part where I said I voted Remain... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Moonster Posted October 16, 2020 Share Posted October 16, 2020 1 minute ago, Stormzy said: I'd be satisfied if that was definitely the case. See, this is why your stance is ridiculous. You know that the SNP or any other party can't guarantee you that, as we don't know who will be in power. So when you say "I can be convinced if people can GUARANTEE we'll use our own currency" is basically you saying you'll never be convinced. How can anyone give you guarantees on the national debt? How can anyone give you a guarantee on EU membership when that will be a matter for the electorate? Do you not see how unreasonable your position is? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CambieBud Posted October 16, 2020 Share Posted October 16, 2020 Voting Yes would have led to Scotland leaving the EU and having to rejoin. Voting No meant the UK remained until it later chose to leave. You haven’t thought that through, have you Stormzy? So the argument from Cameron, Brown and Darling was, vote NO to Independence to guarantee EU membership. No mention of, unless England votes to leave. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welshbairn Posted October 16, 2020 Share Posted October 16, 2020 (edited) Another problem in promising any particular currency outcome and debt share etc is it requires foreknowledge of whether the rUK acts in its own self interest to work for a smooth transition, or like a self destructive wounded spaniel like it's doing at the moment with the EU. Edited October 16, 2020 by welshbairn 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SANTAN Posted October 16, 2020 Share Posted October 16, 2020 6 minutes ago, The Moonster said: See, this is why your stance is ridiculous. You know that the SNP or any other party can't guarantee you that, as we don't know who will be in power. So when you say "I can be convinced if people can GUARANTEE we'll use our own currency" is basically you saying you'll never be convinced. How can anyone give you guarantees on the national debt? How can anyone give you a guarantee on EU membership when that will be a matter for the electorate? Do you not see how unreasonable your position is? Well forget guaranteed we could start with likelyhoods which aren't up to much going by the arguments I've seen on both sides. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SANTAN Posted October 16, 2020 Share Posted October 16, 2020 2 minutes ago, CambieBud said: You haven’t thought that through, have you Stormzy? So the argument from Cameron, Brown and Darling was, vote NO to Independence to guarantee EU membership. No mention of, unless England votes to leave. I did. I saw people mention at the time that UK voters might go for Brexit, can you remember UKIP...? Did you believe at the time that Brown wasn't being sleekit with his words like politicians do, did he convince you or are you just gonna speak on behalf of other people? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Moonster Posted October 16, 2020 Share Posted October 16, 2020 2 minutes ago, Stormzy said: Well forget guaranteed we could start with likelyhoods which aren't up to much going by the arguments I've seen on both sides. Word salad. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anonapersona Posted October 16, 2020 Share Posted October 16, 2020 Some people are going to be against independence no matter what. These people like to pretend they can be convinced otherwise by erecting bizarre impossible hurdles and then gloat over them like they are clever. It's all so sad. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SANTAN Posted October 16, 2020 Share Posted October 16, 2020 6 minutes ago, The Moonster said: Word salad. Poor reading comprehension. -2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thistle_do_nicely Posted October 16, 2020 Share Posted October 16, 2020 19 hours ago, DrewDon said: im really confused but this comes over as being a parody that someone has paid him about £40 to produce, like those Big Man Tyrone videos 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SANTAN Posted October 16, 2020 Share Posted October 16, 2020 6 minutes ago, Anonapersona said: Some people are going to be against independence no matter what. These people like to pretend they can be convinced otherwise by erecting bizarre impossible hurdles and then gloat over them like they are clever. It's all so sad. "Impossible hurdles" = any semblance of a plan. -3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon EF Posted October 16, 2020 Share Posted October 16, 2020 1 hour ago, Stormzy said: A lot of unsures and probablys. I cant say you've constructively answered any of my concerns. I wanted Brexit so I cant see why Scotland attempting to join the EU would be worthwhile.. The currency, debt and border are huge issues that need clarity. The military point isn't about having an army it's about what the foreign policy would be, would it be fully independent from what we have now or would it just realign with what we're at now, very big issue when SNP mps tend to be very anti nuclear and anti foreign intervention (or at least a lot of the supporters are). Considering you have zero practical answers to any of my points I'd say it's safe to say it is some sort of identity crisis for a lot of you guys. What do you watch on Scottish Media? I dont watch Eastenders.... The uncertainty of independence vs the definitiveness of the union is a total false dichotomy. I think 'risk vs stability' played quite well in 2014. I suspect a large part of the reason why women under 65 have shifted towards independence is that an enormous Brexit-shaped hole has been blown in that framing. A decent number of the questions you asked, if they were asked of the UK in 2014, would have completely different answers now. Will we be in the EU? Will there be hard borders? What will the national debt situation be? These are all questions that you simply could not have answered for the UK 6 years ago with any certainty and you cannot answer for either an independent Scotland or Scotland within the UK 6 years into the future. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SANTAN Posted October 16, 2020 Share Posted October 16, 2020 2 minutes ago, Gordon EF said: The uncertainty of independence vs the definitiveness of the union is a total false dichotomy. I think 'risk vs stability' played quite well in 2014. I suspect a large part of the reason why women under 65 have shifted towards independence is that an enormous Brexit-shaped hole has been blown in that framing. A decent number of the questions you asked, if they were asked of the UK in 2014, would have completely different answers now. Will we be in the EU? Will there be hard borders? What will the national debt situation be? These are all questions that you simply could not have answered for the UK 6 years ago with any certainty and you cannot answer for either an independent Scotland or Scotland within the UK 6 years into the future. Some good points well made. As I've said I'm just clearly less dissatisfied with things as they are. My concerns can change but the whole disruption of the status quo isn't worth the risk for me personally. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon EF Posted October 16, 2020 Share Posted October 16, 2020 1 minute ago, Stormzy said: Some good points well made. As I've said I'm just clearly less dissatisfied with things as they are. My concerns can change but the whole disruption of the status quo isn't worth the risk for me personally. I get that. There will be plenty of people in that situation. It's not necessarily a criticism but i do suspect you're a 'heart over head' unionist to a far greater degree than you're letting on. I'm just making the point that I think a lot of people who took your line of 'I need assurances of x, y, z, etc' will be far less held to that in the future as the last few years have basically been a textbook example of the folly of thinking we can predict the future with anything approaching assuredness. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GiGi Posted October 16, 2020 Share Posted October 16, 2020 2 minutes ago, Stormzy said: Some good points well made. As I've said I'm just clearly less dissatisfied with things as they are. My concerns can change but the whole disruption of the status quo isn't worth the risk for me personally. The status quo is no deal brexit, little chance of anyone under the age of 35 to ever see a state pension, a right wing government stripping the devolved governments of powers, erosion of human rights, Tory gammon MPs feeding literally billions of pounds of public funds into the pockets of their already rich mates. Yeah why bother disrupting any of that? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SANTAN Posted October 16, 2020 Share Posted October 16, 2020 1 minute ago, GiGi said: The status quo is no deal brexit, little chance of anyone under the age of 35 to ever see a state pension, a right wing government stripping the devolved governments of powers, erosion of human rights, Tory gammon MPs feeding literally billions of pounds of public funds into the pockets of their already rich mates. Yeah why bother disrupting any of that? Because that's just the way you've emotionally framed it.. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Lambies Doos Posted October 16, 2020 Share Posted October 16, 2020 And there's why I mentioned it.. Already we have two different takes. We take % of our population. Then like every country we run our economy.It's what every other country does. Not rocket science. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GiGi Posted October 16, 2020 Share Posted October 16, 2020 1 minute ago, Stormzy said: Because that's just the way you've emotionally framed it.. Oh, ok then. I suppose rather than being angry at the UK government for using a pandemic to enrich their friends and family, I should just look at things more objectively. How would you frame it? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SANTAN Posted October 16, 2020 Share Posted October 16, 2020 2 minutes ago, Gordon EF said: I get that. There will be plenty of people in that situation. It's not necessarily a criticism but i do suspect you're a 'heart over head' unionist to a far greater degree than you're letting on. I'm just making the point that I think a lot of people who took your line of 'I need assurances of x, y, z, etc' will be far less held to that in the future as the last few years have basically been a textbook example of the folly of thinking we can predict the future with anything approaching assuredness. I'm not trying to pretend I don't love the UK, I've already said I identify as British, I'd definitely acknowledge I'd be harder to convince than some, I'm not trying to pretend I'm undecided tbf. Yeah I agree with your last point. I can't see them wanting more uncertainty though, if anything they're probably traumatised and wanting to cling on to what they know, the lovely UK. -3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SANTAN Posted October 16, 2020 Share Posted October 16, 2020 Just now, GiGi said: Oh, ok then. I suppose rather than being angry at the UK government for using a pandemic to enrich their friends and family, I should just look at things more objectively. How would you frame it? You made like 4 or 5 points and 2 of them were birthday card pish so that's enough for me. You did make some good points which I can see why people let that upset them and think SI would change such hardships, I disagree though. -3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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