When will indyref2 happen?

[Billy Jean King]

That is great. It means nothing though when Boris says no. 
I hope there is an alternative plan and I am wrong. 2021 will be an interesting year.
 
 

I'm sure if there was a legal silver bullet to force a WM govt into agreeing to a Indy ref the legal eagles of the country would have discovered it long ago. Problem with that strategy is those sort of loopholes are easy to plug once out the box. It's irrelevant who WM are saying no to, there is very little legal wriggle room in that department. I tend to think when most people say "she better have a plan B if WM say no" they are alluding to illegal routes such as UDI which is utter moon howling stuff.

[Benjamin_Nevis]

1 hour ago, Sherrif John Bunnell said:

She should have her driving licence taken off her if she can't find Fort William 

[HTG]

55 minutes ago, Day of the Lords said:

She should have her driving licence taken off her if she can't find Fort William 

She's a pointless c**t

[Stellaboz]

Effen idiot. 

[Hedgecutter]

Reminds me of the time I couldn't find Edinburgh because the sign for it had Kirkcaldy and Glenrothes written underneath.  I feared for my life.

[NotThePars]

I'm sure if there was a legal silver bullet to force a WM govt into agreeing to a Indy ref the legal eagles of the country would have discovered it long ago. Problem with that strategy is those sort of loopholes are easy to plug once out the box. It's irrelevant who WM are saying no to, there is very little legal wriggle room in that department. I tend to think when most people say "she better have a plan B if WM say no" they are alluding to illegal routes such as UDI which is utter moon howling stuff.

UDI is moon howling stuff but there is a big gap between politely requesting a referendum and unilaterally declaring independence. Otherwise you’re taking the begging bowl repeatedly to 10 Downing Street and hoping whoever’s occupying it will be gracious enough to let us have another one.

[D Angelo Barksdale]

The mewling from the media 'sensibles' will be fucking delicious if and when we end up down the parliamentary obstruction/civil disobedience route.

I think the Tories are quietly manoeuvring to try and eventually have the referendum on their terms when it becomes impossible for them to continue to just say no.

I could definitely seem them offering a take it or leave it referendum in the next couple of years with massive strings attached regarding the franchise etc.

[Billy Jean King]

UDI is moon howling stuff but there is a big gap between politely requesting a referendum and unilaterally declaring independence. Otherwise you’re taking the begging bowl repeatedly to 10 Downing Street and hoping whoever’s occupying it will be gracious enough to let us have another one.

What is the middle ground though. Difficult to see any other viable route if as expected WM say no. What's the (legal) options ?

[HTG]

2 hours ago, Billy Jean King said:

3 hours ago, NotThePars said:

UDI is moon howling stuff but there is a big gap between politely requesting a referendum and unilaterally declaring independence. Otherwise you’re taking the begging bowl repeatedly to 10 Downing Street and hoping whoever’s occupying it will be gracious enough to let us have another one.

What is the middle ground though. Difficult to see any other viable route if as expected WM say no. What's the (legal) options ?

John Curtice seemed to suggest last night on Newsnight that a Supreme Court ruling in favour of a referendum, based on the extent of the mandate offered by a pro Indy vote next year, had a reasonable chance of success. At least that's how I heard it. They then turned to some lickspittle who was at pains to be a grease ball c**t. 

Edited September 4, 2020 by HTG

[Antlion]

2 hours ago, Hedgecutter said:

Reminds me of the time I couldn't find Edinburgh because the sign for it had Kirkcaldy and Glenrothes written underneath.  I feared for my life.

I wanted to go to Edinburgh. I read “Beattock”. Ploughed straight into a family of four, snapped, went home and burnt down an orphanage.

I sometimes think signmakers don’t even care about the blood they spill.

[NotThePars]

What is the middle ground though. Difficult to see any other viable route if as expected WM say no. What's the (legal) options ?

You would hope there would be conversations taking place in the government about not cooperating with Westminster and looking at peaceful methods of civil disobedience. If the Tories say no and the courts back them up (or if the courts don’t and they’re just ignored) then I’m at a loss as to what the next step is supposed to be. I can’t remember who wrote about it but Scottish independence is so strangely (maybe uniquely) non threatening and non radical in its perception and methods which is wild considering what it will accomplish if it’s successful.

[Dunfermline Don]

Reminds me of the time I couldn't find Edinburgh because the sign for it had Kirkcaldy and Glenrothes written underneath.  I feared for my life.

If I was near Kirkcaldy or Glenrothes I would be fearful for my life as well!

[Anonapersona]

Westminster is relying on the fact that Scots will find it acceptable to be told no, because we're used to it.

[DeeTillEhDeh]

I was reading a thing about the Leave campaign vs the Independence campaign which was quite illuminating - Leave studied why Independence lost and decided to deliberately avoid talking about what the UK would look like after leaving the EU so as not to get bogged down in opponents attacking specific details. I suppose that's an explanation for why the SNP haven't been very definite.

Anyway as folk have said, agitating to replace the most popular politician in the Scotland, let alone the whole party, is not serious talk.

Not to mention telling as many porkies they could get away with.

 

 

 

[NotThePars]

I don't think it matters what Boris thinks.  This is a Scottish problem and under international law the Scottish people have a right to self determination.  The same as any other country that has chosen to become Independent.  

 

I can think of a dozen problems with what you’ve said not least that it does likely matter what the PM thinks and to what extent the international community will recognise any declaration of independence that doesn’t jump the numerous hurdles of legitimacy

 

Also I feel that the last sentence ignores that the circumstances in which most countries became independent are usually unique and I think the vast majority of them don’t bear a lot of similarities to Scotland. A prosperous Western nation breaking free from a permanent UN Security Council member feels pretty unique, no?

[NotThePars]

We should renounce the section 30 process immediately, because that let's another country interfere with our own country's decisions.  It allows them to decide the terms that a referendum will be held.  What the question on the ballot paper will be and more importantly, they could set a bar like they did back in the 70s.  
The section 30 route is a smokescreen to fool Scotland.  If the bojo clown agrees to a request with conditions that would make it difficult to get a Yes vote.  Already this week we have had some lord guy saying that it should be extended to Scots all over the world, they are changing the goalposts before a section 30 has been sought. 
Is the idea of UDI so disastrous?  Remaining in the union is looking even more disastrous for Scotland.  
Westminster are attacking our laws and undermining the treaty of union yet again.  

Added more to my post. I don’t think it necessarily matters how unfair or ridiculous a Section 30 or whatever is more it’s perception among the public or the international community. If we declared UDI then who would realistically recognise it? If it would secure broad international support then fair enough but I imagine that we’d be joining South Ossetia and Transnistria in the umbrella of Russian backed breakaway republics.

[NotThePars]

It is indeed a unique situation. Brexit forced upon a nation that voted against it.  (From your previous edit)
This recognition thing gets me back to my inner feelings.  I understand that my country needs to be recognised Internationally, but at the end of the day if they don't then tough shit.  I recognise my country.  You know the people of Scotland have done amazing things, created many things and I am sure we can continue with that. 
I don't know the economics of other countries, but I am pretty much damn sure Scotland could handle itself on the global stage, I have no doubt.  

I don’t mean to disparage your feelings just it’s the reality of the situation. Plus the SNP are the independence movement like it or lump it and they’ve proven that they’ll only settle for full international recognition from Westminster to Brussels to the UN.

[welshbairn]

2 hours ago, Stinky Bone said:

  I understand that my country needs to be recognised Internationally, but at the end of the day if they don't then tough shit.

There would be zero chance of winning a referendum on those terms, or rather with no terms at all. So you'd have to do it without a referendum meaning not only no international legitimacy, but with no internal legitimacy. 

Edited September 4, 2020 by welshbairn

[DiegoDiego]

I don't think it matters what Boris thinks.  This is a Scottish problem and under international law the Scottish people have a right to self determination.  The same as any other country that has chosen to become Independent.  

Tell that to Bougainville.

Unrecognised independence is an absolute non-starter for hopefully very obvious reasons.

[Guest Jedi]

On 03/09/2020 at 22:42, MixuFruit said:

How to lose indyref 2:

Yes Campaigner on doorstep: we could join EFTA

Normal person: what's EFTA

Don't disagree that EFTA is a harder 'sell' than back in the EU. However, there still needs to be transparency and honesty about the EU situation. The application process for membership of the EU typically takes around a decade. Macron has been pushing for more stringent criteria for joining. Again, this is where Brexit makes the whole situation more difficult, as Scotland has already 'left' the EU. 

A lot of No to Yes voters, I would imagine have had their minds changed by the prospect of getting back in. Is it as attractive, if it is a process which could years though? No guarantee that an Independent Scotland would be fast tracked. Of course we could still negotiate with the EU to try and strike trade deals, but not with full membership for some time, and again Brexit will probably muddy the waters. Had we voted Yes in 2014 with the UK still in the EU, it would have been a much smoother process.

Edited September 5, 2020 by Jedi