When will indyref2 happen?

[Aufc]

Ill add to comment above.

The issue i reckon is that you have two sides

- people like malky who trot out that scotland spends £12.6bn more than we receive. To be fair to Malky, he is using a gov.scot source which most people would assume to be correct. On the other side, my question is if this is the case why do the uk want to keep us?

- on the other side you have the snp supporters who round on him and tell him he is talking rubbish. However, i have never seen any financial figures from them and every source i look online refers back to this £12.6bn. There were a few comments about that figure not taking into account other figures.

I sit somewhere in the middle. Emotionally, i would love Scotland to be a prosperous country and all decisions taken in scotland were made for the good of the country. However, i can look beyond that and want definite figures as to how an independent scotland would look financially.

I would imagine that this is the feeling of a lot of people. If the snp were to provide figures then i reckon they would easily get the majority. To be honest, even if they came out and said the financials were not looking great but offered a plausible solution then I am sure no voters would be willing to back them

[John Lambies Doos]

So what's Nics next steps?

[tirso]

I agree. The problem is the media won't allow that sort of nuance to cut through. I'm no conspiracy theorist, I think it's fair to say any new indyref will have the UK state against the snp and it's media handlers will work tirelessly to create as much doubt as possible. There's no way they'll be as complacent this time.

In saying that it's up to the snp to win the argument even against unfair and fair scrutiny. End of the day it's up to the Scottish people. If they want it, they'll get it. It wont be handed to them easily.

Ill add to comment above.

The issue i reckon is that you have two sides

- people like malky who trot out that scotland spends £12.6bn more than we receive. To be fair to Malky, he is using a gov.scot source which most people would assume to be correct. On the other side, my question is if this is the case why do the uk want to keep us?

- on the other side you have the snp supporters who round on him and tell him he is talking rubbish. However, i have never seen any financial figures from them and every source i look online refers back to this £12.6bn. There were a few comments about that figure not taking into account other figures.

I sit somewhere in the middle. Emotionally, i would love Scotland to be a prosperous country and all decisions taken in scotland were made for the good of the country. However, i can look beyond that and want definite figures as to how an independent scotland would look financially.

I would imagine that this is the feeling of a lot of people. If the snp were to provide figures then i reckon they would easily get the majority. To be honest, even if they came out and said the financials were not looking great but offered a plausible solution then I am sure no voters would be willing to back them

[Dunfermline Don]

Has anyone, as a result of the general election changed their mind on Scottish Independence? 

Yes. I was always keen for Independence before, now I am determined to make it happen.
We can forget about the 25% that voted Tory. If they can vote for a party led by Johnson we have no chance converting them.
We need to concentrate on convincing Labour and Lib Dem supporters,reminding them that supporting independence doesn’t mean we will have an SNP government indefinitely but that the Scottish people will get what they have voted for not however England decided to vote.

[welshbairn]

The financials of an Independent Scotland are crystal ball gazing. One economist will show evidence that we could be a prospering independent nation in Europe, on par with similar sized and resourced countries. Others will say we'll be up shit creek without a paddle. There is no way of guaranteeing anything, only that the same can be said of the UK's giant leap of faith into mid Atlantic isolation, with a far less clear path to stable prosperity.

[TheScarf]

18 minutes ago, John Lambies Doos said:

So what's Nics next steps?

From bed to the bog for a morning piss imo. 

[NotThePars]

Has anyone, as a result of the general election changed their mind on Scottish Independence? 

I think we should give Boris and this shit fascist island a chance.

[NotThePars]

Given Boris has zero need to grant Scotland a referendum and zero scruples about ignoring any expressed democratic will to hold one, what’s the path to independence? Civil disobedience?

[Ross.]

Anecdotal, I know, but from a quick look on Facebook today I've seen comments from a couple of guys I used to work with, both "Traditional British" stock shall we say, both I would have thought absolutely unchangeable in opinion on independence, and both are now saying it's inevitable and should be done as quickly and painlessly as possible.

Add in the EU born residents and the general voting demographics with young v old, as well as more Labour voters switching sides, and I think the next few opinion polls might show another surge in the right direction for independence.

[git-intae-thum]

3 minutes ago, NotThePars said:

Given Boris has zero need to grant Scotland a referendum and zero scruples about ignoring any expressed democratic will to hold one, what’s the path to independence? Civil disobedience?

An officially organised blockchain covenant.

When signed by 50% plus 1 of the Scottish electorate it is an unarguable mandate for UDI.

 

[Ross.]

36 minutes ago, Aufc said:

- people like malky who trot out that scotland spends £12.6bn more than we receive. To be fair to Malky, he is using a gov.scot source which most people would assume to be correct. On the other side, my question is if this is the case why do the uk want to keep us?

- on the other side you have the snp supporters who round on him and tell him he is talking rubbish. However, i have never seen any financial figures from them and every source i look online refers back to this £12.6bn. There were a few comments about that figure not taking into account other figures.

1) Scotland cannot spend more than it receives. The argument is that it receives more than it generates, and that is a very different scenario.

2) The figures quoted don't give an entirely accurate picture for a variety of reasons, not least because some of the assigned spending is clearly ludicrous(5% odd of GDP assigned to defence/military spending??) and it assumes spending and revenue raising stays exactly the same post independence. It's almost impossible to predict what the actual picture would be.

[Biscuits]

This speech by wee Nicola [emoji7][emoji7][emoji7]

[Hillonearth]

Game on

[welshbairn]

12 minutes ago, NotThePars said:

Given Boris has zero need to grant Scotland a referendum and zero scruples about ignoring any expressed democratic will to hold one, what’s the path to independence? Civil disobedience?

I wonder if there are legal ways we can f**k the rUK up by withdrawing cooperation, like working to rule. Like, sorry, we haven't quite got round to collecting taxes and sending the dosh down, bit short staffed you see.

[HTG]

Excellent summary by Nicola. 

[alta-pete]

39 minutes ago, welshbairn said:

The financials of an Independent Scotland are crystal ball gazing. One economist will show evidence that we could be a prospering independent nation in Europe, on par with similar sized and resourced countries. Others will say we'll be up shit creek without a paddle. There is no way of guaranteeing anything, only that the same can be said of the UK's giant leap of faith into mid Atlantic isolation, with a far less clear path to stable prosperity.

The White Paper of 2014 made exactly that assertion.

40 minutes ago, welshbairn said:

The financials of an Independent Scotland are crystal ball gazing. One economist will show evidence that we could be a prospering independent nation in Europe, on par with similar sized and resourced countries. Others will say we'll be up shit creek without a paddle. There is no way of guaranteeing anything, only that the same can be said of the UK's giant leap of faith into mid Atlantic isolation, with a far less clear path to stable prosperity.

And if we'd believed it, we woudl have been.

[NotThePars]

I wonder if there are legal ways we can f**k the rUK up by withdrawing cooperation, like working to rule. Like, sorry, we haven't quite got round to collecting taxes and sending the dosh down, bit short staffed you see.

I think it’s important that we (us, right here, on the P&B politics forum) start brainstorming ideas of agitating and resisting the British state. I don’t know if the SNP have a plan beyond taking it through the courts which will see it kicked in to the long grass, inducing further apathy and potentially giving the Tories a major legal victory. I can’t imagine the Spanish state jailing the Catalan leaders and forcing others into exile while the EU looks on passively is going to inspire much either.

Maybe the Tories will be bowled over by git intae thum’s blockchain petition.

[Thistle_do_nicely]

any links/transcripts of Sturgeons speech likely to be available soon? In work without headphones but its pretty quiet, would like to hear it. Might take a peek at the SNP site later as would imagine it'll be up there, or maybe the twitter feed.

[welshbairn]

9 minutes ago, Thistle_do_nicely said:

any links/transcripts of Sturgeons speech likely to be available soon? In work without headphones but its pretty quiet, would like to hear it. Might take a peek at the SNP site later as would imagine it'll be up there, or maybe the twitter feed.

Found a bit of it, missed it too.

Quote

This is not about asking Boris Johnson or any other Westminster politician for permission. It is an assertion of the democratic right of the people of Scotland to determine their own future. Given what I fear the Tory government has in store for Scotland, that right to choose our own future has never been more important.

So, to the Prime Minister, let me be clear. This is not simply a demand that I or the SNP are making. It is the right of the people of Scotland - and you as the leader of a defeated party in Scotland have no right to stand in the way.

In an independent Scotland we will always get the governments we vote for. We will have full control of the powers and levers needed to build a truly fair and more prosperous country. We can take our place as an equal partner with our closest friends in the rest of the UK and across Europe.

The people of Scotland have spoken - it is time to decide our own future.

 

[Gordon EF]

56 minutes ago, welshbairn said:

The financials of an Independent Scotland are crystal ball gazing. One economist will show evidence that we could be a prospering independent nation in Europe, on par with similar sized and resourced countries. Others will say we'll be up shit creek without a paddle. There is no way of guaranteeing anything, only that the same can be said of the UK's giant leap of faith into mid Atlantic isolation, with a far less clear path to stable prosperity.

This is it. As much as we might all think we're entirely logical decision making machines. Everyone cherry picks data to make their case sound better. The research is clear on stuff like this. People are not convinced to change their minds by a studious run through and rigorous debate of the facts and figures. They have to be moved to a place where they become open to the arguments. And like it or not, that's all down to how they feel.