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When will indyref2 happen?


Colkitto

Indyref2  

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11 minutes ago, Boo Khaki said:

Fine. Do you at least accept that people have been driven to suicide because of changes to Welfare policy since 2010?

And secondly, it's not a question of 'an extra £10 per week', the fact you keep bringing that up just serves to emphasise that you really have no understanding of the issue.

Some people may have killed themselves because of financial issues - many, many others who killed themselves or attempted suicide had no financial issues whatsoever. 

What they did all have in common was an immediate need for help - usually mental health help. 

I was talking with a colleague about this a few days ago. In Scotland we used to have a large number of buildings that were run to house those with mental health issues - asylums as they used to be called. We had far lower rates of suicide back in those days. Today, if you can get a GP appointment in the first place you are prescribed some pills, told to go away and see how that goes for a few days / weeks, then told to come back so the dosage can be upped, or left as it is until you feel better. I'm not saying that asylums are better than leaving people to fend for themselves with a handful of pills but there has to be a better balance in mental healthcare. And before anyone gets defensive on this it's not an attempt to slate the SNP. They are no better and no worse than the Westminster Government when it comes to mental health awareness, and their attempts to combat it. 

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45 minutes ago, O'Kelly Isley III said:

Apologies for my delay in replying, but let's keep this short. I made reference to a funeral celebrant who is Lanarkshire-based; as far as I know he is not confined to a three mile radius around Chapelhall. Indeed, he more often than not attends to Glasgow bereavements.

You chose to arbitrarily link my original post to sadly-deceased acquaintances of your son(s), when at no time had I personalised my remarks or attached them to particular individuals. I didn't know these lads from Adam but that doesn't alter the horrifying statistics of youth suicide in WoS.

You put two and two together Malky and made five - I look forward to your apology.

No apology from me. You tried to score a political point out of the tragic deaths of a few young kids. Sadly that is the contemptible state of political discourse on this website. It's like some people just can't wait for the next tragedy so they can blame their political opponents no matter how irrelevant it is. 

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21 minutes ago, oaksoft said:

You should direct that at BawWatchin.

He is the one who thinks depression is money related.

It's not as simple as being 'money related'. 

Poverty is undoubtedly an aggravating factor in propensity for poor mental and physical health. The issue is that some folk in here appear to be trying to back up their own points by dismissing that, arguing that comparatively wealthy people succumb to poor health also, therefore it can't be the case.

It's not exclusive to poor people, and neither are the wealthy immune. Poverty makes individuals more susceptible, that's a documented fact.

19 minutes ago, Malky3 said:

Some people may have killed themselves because of financial issues - many, many others who killed themselves or attempted suicide had no financial issues whatsoever. 

What they did all have in common was an immediate need for help - usually mental health help. 

I was talking with a colleague about this a few days ago. In Scotland we used to have a large number of buildings that were run to house those with mental health issues - asylums as they used to be called. We had far lower rates of suicide back in those days. Today, if you can get a GP appointment in the first place you are prescribed some pills, told to go away and see how that goes for a few days / weeks, then told to come back so the dosage can be upped, or left as it is until you feel better. I'm not saying that asylums are better than leaving people to fend for themselves with a handful of pills but there has to be a better balance in mental healthcare. And before anyone gets defensive on this it's not an attempt to slate the SNP. They are no better and no worse than the Westminster Government when it comes to mental health awareness, and their attempts to combat it. 

Again, it's not just an issue of money or lack of income. You keep on making points about money and finances when that's not the sole factor in why Welfare policy is driving people into despair.

A good number of the people who are being affected by DWP procedures are people who are perfectly capable of living independently with only minimal input from, and day-to-day monitoring by mental health services. They have no need of an institution, putting them in a hospital would be completely unnecessary, costly, deny them personal freedoms, and undoubtedly be detrimental to their ongoing mental wellbeing. 

The problem isn't a lack of care, it's the fact that these people are, for the most part, happily getting on with their lives in spite of complex conditions and illnesses, because thanks to the fact they are relatively independent, they have some freedom to choose how best to manage their own treatment and develop robust routines and coping strategies. The problems start when DWP interfere, remove certain provisions, or needlessly harass people with lifelong conditions who have not in any way seen their circumstances change since the last time they were hauled over the coals.

They don't have an 'immediate need for help'. They're coping perfectly fine until the DWP randomly decide to intervene in their lives.

As part of my job I'm in and out of locked wards all the time. I've also studied the history of mental health provision in the UK as part of my vocational qualifications. The reason suicide rates were lower is because folk used to get carted off to the loony bin for all sorts of ludicrous and trivial reasons, whereupon they were pumped full of whatever the sedative of choice was at that point in time, discarded, and left to rot for the rest of their natural. The last thing we need is more institutions and more folk ending up in them.

Edited by Boo Khaki
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1 minute ago, Malky3 said:

No apology from me. You tried to score a political point out of the tragic deaths of a few young kids. Sadly that is the contemptible state of political discourse on this website. It's like some people just can't wait for the next tragedy so they can blame their political opponents no matter how irrelevant it is. 

It's not political, it's statistical. Statistically, people with less money are considerably more likely to commit suicide.

You get one more chance to apologize for make a right c**t of yourself.

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3 minutes ago, Boo Khaki said:

It's not as simple as being 'money related'. 

Poverty is undoubtedly an aggravating factor in propensity for poor mental and physical health. The issue is that some folk in here appear to be trying to back up their own points by dismissing that, arguing that comparatively wealthy people succumb to poor health also, therefore it can't be the case.

It's not exclusive to poor people, and neither are the wealthy immune. Poverty makes individuals more susceptible, that's a documented fact.

Again, it's not just an issue of money or lack of income. You keep on making points about money and finances when that's not the sole factor in why Welfare policy is driving people into despair.

A good number of the people who are being affected by DWP procedures are people who are perfectly capable of living independently with only minimal input from, and day-to-day monitoring by mental health services. They have no need of an institution, putting them in a hospital would be completely unnecessary, costly, deny them personal freedoms, and undoubtedly be detrimental to their ongoing mental wellbeing. 

The problem isn't a lack of care, it's the fact that these people are, for the most part, happily getting on with their lives in spite of complex conditions and illnesses, because thanks to the fact they are relatively independent, they have some freedom to choose how best to manage their own treatment and develop robust routines and coping strategies. The problems start when DWP interfere, remove certain provisions, or needlessly harass people with lifelong conditions who have not in any way seen their circumstances change since the last time they were hauled over the coals.

They don't have an 'immediate need for help'. They're coping perfectly fine until the DWP randomly decide to intervene in their lives.

As part of my job I'm in and out of locked wards all the time. I've also studied the history of mental health provision in the UK as part of my vocational qualifications. The reason suicide rates were lower is because folk used to get carted off to the loony bin for all sorts of ludicrous and trivial reasons, whereupon they were pumped full of whatever the sedative of choice was at that point in time, discarded, and left to rot for the rest of their natural. The last thing we need is more institutions and more folk ending up in them.

Oh my word! You are literally all over the place with this. 

First you say it's not as simple as being money related. Good - we agree! 

Then you say it's a documented fact that it is more likely to be money related. - now we don't agree.

Then you say it's not just an issue of money or lack of income - agreed

Then you say it's more to do with DWP procedures - maybe for those in contact with the DWP, but as we've already established for many suicides it's not as simple as being money related. Many who have taken their lives have never had to deal with the DWP at any point! 

Then you claim the problem isn't a lack of care - when it's well documented that getting a GP appointment is difficult enough, never mind trying to get your GP to take your mental health issues seriously, or to get you referred to the kind of specialists who can help you quickly enough. 

And then you say the reason we had fewer suicides back in the day was cause we locked those susceptible to killing themselves up - which is what I said - and we didn't just leave people out there with a handful of pills on a long waiting list to see someone who can help them! 

I've already said that the asylum system isn't where we should be, but we also shouldn't be leaving people with mental health issues on their own with a handful of pills hoping that they pull themselves together before it costs the NHS too much money! 

 

 

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2 minutes ago, oaksoft said:

Imagine believing that mathematicians have the faintest idea about what causes depression. :lol:

Yeah, imagine statistics that highlight that people on the lowest income are considerably more likely to commit suicide than those on good incomes.

It's all just one big coincidence and doesn't really have anything to do with wealth inequality at all..... 🙄

 

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Just now, oaksoft said:

It's not a fact at all. It's a statistical correlation based on the UK alone. Nothing more. Some of the happiest people on earth live in actual poverty across the world.

It has absolutely nothing to do with poverty itself. It's MUCH more complicated than that and it's frustrating to hear this bone stupidity being parroted by people who ought to know better.

When DWP are a factor in the lives of folk living on Pacific Islands, then they'll have some relevance.

We're discussing poverty, ill-health, and suicide in the UK, hence why the studies specifically concentrating on those issues are relevant, and those that encompass global population are not.

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1 minute ago, oaksoft said:

Please tell me you don't work in this field.

I'm serious. Please tell me your job is unrelated to helping people with these problems.

Me, and umpteen thousand other distinct individuals, the organisations who employ us, the people we work with, the foundations and institutions who  conduct the studies and correlate data that contributes to formulating policy and approach. Nope, we're all mistaken, and you and one other individual on this forum who are completely untrained, have no specialisation in the field, and have repeatedly displayed your own ignorance, are correct. 

:blink:

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2 minutes ago, Day of the Lords said:

Scenes as someone finally manages to out-moron Malky. Less surprising that it's Oaksoft.

They are quite the team. Two like-minded individuals, a little bit spooky, a little bit unsettling. Kinda reminds me of something.

408201011_giphy(9).gif.18a617178c4aec355ab49c4e34a0e6ba.gif

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10 minutes ago, Malky3 said:

Oh my word! You are literally all over the place with this. 

First you say it's not as simple as being money related. Good - we agree! 

Then you say it's a documented fact that it is more likely to be money related. - now we don't agree.

Then you say it's not just an issue of money or lack of income - agreed

Then you say it's more to do with DWP procedures - maybe for those in contact with the DWP, but as we've already established for many suicides it's not as simple as being money related. Many who have taken their lives have never had to deal with the DWP at any point! 

Then you claim the problem isn't a lack of care - when it's well documented that getting a GP appointment is difficult enough, never mind trying to get your GP to take your mental health issues seriously, or to get you referred to the kind of specialists who can help you quickly enough. 

And then you say the reason we had fewer suicides back in the day was cause we locked those susceptible to killing themselves up - which is what I said - and we didn't just leave people out there with a handful of pills on a long waiting list to see someone who can help them! 

I've already said that the asylum system isn't where we should be, but we also shouldn't be leaving people with mental health issues on their own with a handful of pills hoping that they pull themselves together before it costs the NHS too much money! 

 

 

Where to start with this...

I'll ignore the points you're happy to agree and address the ones you don't.

'money related' - You're conflating money with poverty. The two are not one and the same, hence why I keep reiterating to you that it's not a question of the flat amount of money going into people's pockets.

'Not a lack of care' - Yes, because as is quite obvious from my post, I'm talking about people who have no need of more mental health care. The fact you're now bringing folk who don't interact with DWP into it and making the point they also commit suicide is wholly irrelevant. While it's absolutely the case that those people do want for lack of provision, I thought it was abundantly clear from my post I'm not referring to those, so I really have no idea why you're bringing them up.

And your point about asylum - Again, we're clearly talking about two wholly separate and distinct demographics, so I have no idea why you're conflating the two in an attempt to dismantle my posts.

For clarity - I was talking exclusively about people who are dependent on Welfare, not people who suffer from poor mental or physical health but have no interactions with DWP. I thought that was obvious, but apparently not, so I apologise for the confusion.

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No apology from me. You tried to score a political point out of the tragic deaths of a few young kids. Sadly that is the contemptible state of political discourse on this website. It's like some people just can't wait for the next tragedy so they can blame their political opponents no matter how irrelevant it is. 
Another utter distortion of my original post, but nothing more than I've come to expect. Your ratings speak volumes.
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2 minutes ago, O'Kelly Isley III said:
47 minutes ago, Malky3 said:
No apology from me. You tried to score a political point out of the tragic deaths of a few young kids. Sadly that is the contemptible state of political discourse on this website. It's like some people just can't wait for the next tragedy so they can blame their political opponents no matter how irrelevant it is. 

Another utter distortion of my original post, but nothing more than I've come to expect. Your ratings speak volumes.

Beware O'KI, yer man will appear through the night spraying your every post with wee red fellaes till he's all jizzed out of them.  That's his style when he has little or no substance, but repeats his original observations around 12.6 billion times till he thinks he's got his way - or has worn you down.  That, to him, is a victory - albeit pyrrhic.

Stay safe out there. 

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