When will indyref2 happen?

[tirso]

1 hour ago, Malky3 said:

Sturgeon has always called for remaining in a customs union.

On the 28th of March 2019 the House of Commons had a second round of indicative votes.  One of those votes was on a motion raised by Conservative MP Ken Clarke. The motion said the government must “ensure that any Withdrawal Agreement and Political Declaration negotiated with the EU must include, as a minimum, a commitment to negotiate a permanent and comprehensive UK-wide customs union with the EU”. Parliament voted 273 for, 276 against. The SNP abstained! 

With that vote Ian Blackford and his team of performing seals blew away the one opportunity to ensure Scotland remained in a customs union - a key demand of Sturgeon since the EU Referendum result. 

The SNP isn't interested in what is best for Scotland, they are only interested in how to get a second Independence Referendum. 

I honestly believe the SNP would much rather have held the independence referendum much later.   Notwithstanding, the demographic would probably be more likely in favour.  You can see the demographic changing slowly already.

I think many independence supporters feel a bit bounced into it ahead of time but they feel that the Brexit chaos shows up too fundamental a change in UK policy that it merits the question being put again.  

We need politicians to get away from trying to point score and start making Scotland better...whatever your view.  We don't live in the 90s anymore, there's a generational shift towards independence that's not going away.  That new Scottish Secretary should hang his head with his comments today... how is he helping to make the economy better?  Apportioning blame when it's anything but clear cut.

 

[Malky3]

1 hour ago, BawWatchin said:

When added to the deficits they claim Wales and Northern Ireland have, it amounts to over 100% of the UK deficit.

Read that and let it sink in for a moment...... actually, give yourself a few additional moments.

And? 

Until the SNP show they could set up all of the public services that are being supplied to Scotland by the Westminster government for less than what they charge, it's all fairies and unicorns - to use a phrase that was used last night. 

 

[tirso]

1 hour ago, Malky3 said:

The highest National Deficit in Europe and one of the largest in the Western World. 

As I've said it's up to the nationalists to present their plan to replace the services that the UK Government charge for in these GERS figures. So far there has been no alternative and no costings. 

See in all seriousness, this is a fair point.

It does appear to be utter garbage.   Then the Scottish government should be challenging it.  Anyone who's interested understands why they're not but times change.  The proportion of UK spending in Scotland needs openly discussed.

 

 

[BawWatchin]

6 minutes ago, Malky3 said:

And? 

Until the SNP show they could set up all of the public services that are being supplied to Scotland by the Westminster government for less than what they charge, it's all fairies and unicorns - to use a phrase that was used last night.

What public services are Westminster funding in Scotland? The NHS, Schools, Law Enforcement, Fire Services, Infrastructure, Prescriptions, Waste Management.... etc are all funded from the Scottish Parliamentary budget.

So where does Westminster spend the other half of Scotlands tax revenue as well as £12.6bn of UK Government borrowing in Scotland?

Well... you can't answer that, because nobody beyond the UK Government knows. Which is why we have GERS.

[Malky3]

15 minutes ago, tirso said:

I honestly believe the SNP would much rather have held the independence referendum much later.   Notwithstanding, the demographic would probably be more likely in favour.  You can see the demographic changing slowly already.

I think many independence supporters feel a bit bounced into it ahead of time but they feel that the Brexit chaos shows up too fundamental a change in UK policy that it merits the question being put again.  

We need politicians to get away from trying to point score and start making Scotland better...whatever your view.  We don't live in the 90s anymore, there's a generational shift towards independence that's not going away.  That new Scottish Secretary should hang his head with his comments today... how is he helping to make the economy better?  Apportioning blame when it's anything but clear cut.

I totally agree with the sentiments of the highlighted sentence but I think that's the only part I can agree with. I don't see a shift towards Independence. I see people completely entrenched - so much so that when there is a political discussion on these pages, or in pubs or living rooms it causes huge rifts, and generally ends up with Nationalists screaming abuse at us "Yoons" and "Quislings". Nationalists aren't open to discussion. If you question the White Paper you get abuse. If you ask about sterlingisation you get abuse. If you ask about the cost and risks of setting up a new currency you get abuse. And if you ask what changes a new Independent Scotland would make to ensure it's fiscally viable and that it delivers on the vague promise of a richer, fairer society you get abuse. 

The best way to bring the country together would be for the SNP to accept that they need to go away and come up with a proper detailed and fully costed vision that shows us how an Independent Scotland would make health care more efficient, that makes education standards far better than they are today, that ensures that everyone in the country is given the opportunity to develop their skills to make the most of their abilities. Only once they have that should they ever come back to talk about holding yet another divisive and economically damaging referendum. Give their support convincing arguments to give to us sceptics instead of tooling them up with bullshit barbs that claim everyone that is against them are "stupid English Tory voting Brexit racists". 

 

 

 

[Double Jack D]

19 minutes ago, tirso said:

See in all seriousness, this is a fair point.

It does appear to be utter garbage.   Then the Scottish government should be challenging it.  Anyone who's interested understands why they're not but times change.  The proportion of UK spending in Scotland needs openly discussed.

 

 

Agree 100%. We can account for circa £30bn which is spent through Holyrood and funds pretty much all the major public services in Scotland, quite what the additional £45bn is spent on isn't abundantly clear.

Malky is correct though, a fundamental breakdown of what it is and how we could deliver it more efficiently on our own is needed before many will vote Yes. 

[Malky3]

14 minutes ago, BawWatchin said:

What public services are Westminster funding in Scotland? The NHS, Schools, Law Enforcement, Fire Services, Infrastructure, Prescriptions, Waste Management.... etc are all funded from the Scottish Parliamentary budget.

So where does Westminster spend the other half of Scotlands tax revenue as well as £12.6bn of UK Government borrowing in Scotland?

Well... you can't answer that, because nobody beyond the UK Government knows. Which is why we have GERS.

Defence? Foreign Aid? International Diplomacy? The DWP? HMRC? The DVLA? The Home Office? 

We've already established this. Please try and keep up. 

[Malky3]

1 minute ago, Double Jack D said:

Malky is correct though, a fundamental breakdown of what it is and how we could deliver it more efficiently on our own is needed before many will vote Yes. 

Thank you. 

It's common sense really. If the SNP can show accurately and robustly that Scotland could run and manage all the services required to make an Independent Scotland more cost effective and viable they'd have a solid argument to prove the figures in the GERS are rubbish. 

[Double Jack D]

16 minutes ago, Malky3 said:

Defence? Foreign Aid? International Diplomacy? The DWP? HMRC? The DVLA? The Home Office? 

We've already established this. Please try and keep up. 

UK "Strategic" Infrastructure, Hinckley point Energy subsidy, Met Police, Westminster refurb, Nuclear Weapons, Illegal Wars, National Debt interest are some of the ones I'm more interested in 

Edited August 21, 2019 by Double Jack D

[Double Jack D]

3 minutes ago, Malky3 said:

Thank you. 

It's common sense really. If the SNP can show accurately and robustly that Scotland could run and manage all the services required to make an Independent Scotland more cost effective and viable they'd have a solid argument to prove the figures in the GERS are rubbish. 

GERS figures aren't necessarily "rubbish", they just don't show an accurate measure of the finances of an independent Scotland. They aren't designed to. 

It was a stupid decision to refer to them as such in the 2014 White Paper but we are where we are. I totally agree that the Yes campaign needs to credibly show the economics of an Independent Scotland and clearly show its working. It will be routinely rubbished by the Unionist politicians and media and they need to be prepared for that.

What I do hope though is that 2014 No voters are open to objectively assessing the information for themselves (if it is provided)  and not just regurgitating inevitable Unionist propaganda.  Simply regurgitating "£13bn black hole" doesn't do the debate any justice at all.

[BawWatchin]

11 minutes ago, Malky3 said:

Defence? Foreign Aid? International Diplomacy? The DWP? HMRC? The DVLA? The Home Office? 

We've already established this. Please try and keep up. 

Scotland generated  £62.7bn in tax revenue over the last financial year.

If you set aside £33bn for what the Scottish Parliment already covers in Scotland within it's £33bn budget. That leaves £29.7bn. Enough to cover pensions, social security benefits, defence and so on. A home office wouldn't cost much as we already cover policing and fire services in our £33bn budget.
 

[Gaz FFC]

[tirso]

7 minutes ago, Malky3 said:

I totally agree with the sentiments of the highlighted sentence but I think that's the only part I can agree with. I don't see a shift towards Independence. I see people completely entrenched - so much so that when there is a political discussion on these pages, or in pubs or living rooms it causes huge rifts, and generally ends up with Nationalists screaming abuse at us "Yoons" and "Quislings". Nationalists aren't open to discussion. If you question the White Paper you get abuse. If you ask about sterlingisation you get abuse. If you ask about the cost and risks of setting up a new currency you get abuse. And if you ask what changes a new Independent Scotland would make to ensure it's fiscally viable and that it delivers on the vague promise of a richer, fairer society you get abuse. 

The best way to bring the country together would be for the SNP to accept that they need to go away and come up with a proper detailed and fully costed vision that shows us how an Independent Scotland would make health care more efficient, that makes education standards far better than they are today, that ensures that everyone in the country is given the opportunity to develop their skills to make the most of their abilities. Only once they have that should they ever come back to talk about holding yet another divisive and economically damaging referendum. Give their support convincing arguments to give to us sceptics instead of tooling them up with bullshit barbs that claim everyone that is against them are "stupid English Tory voting Brexit racists". 

 

 

 

People on both sides are over egging their points to suit their argument.  Do you concede you might be too?  I mean you were talking about the SNP putting forward sterlingisation earlier so Scotland couldn't carry deficit.  Do you think that would ever be put forward if that was the case?

I don't think you should get abuse for asking legitimate questions or even daft ones!  I think some of your points are well made.  I think some ridiculous about us not being able to carry a deficit like other countries and questioning whether we'd actually get in the EU when countries with real corruption are already there.  Fair fs though, am not at your throat over it.  But it's undeniable surely that this issue isn't going away and young people are more entrenched and getting older.  As I say, this is post2014 Scotland.  No voters want it to go away but, frankly, it's not going to happen and that's not just about the SNP or anyone of P&B.  It's the population.  Maybe after another defeat it will; who knows.

But do you really believe there are people falling out over this?  I have honestly never heard the word Yoon mentioned by another soul outside of social media.  If they are I think most people would think they need to get a life.  We are an extremely normal country getting on with our lives.  We're not in a civil war for goodness sake.  It was actually unbelievable how little bad behavior there was considering this is about nationhood.

The referendum in Scotland was generally good for the country's profile worldwide.  I don't believe there's been any evidence it was economically damaging in itself but willing to be persuaded. 

Sorry to come back to Alistair Jack but I see his sort of attitude today as more damaging to Scotland in the long run than asking a question the people increasingly will want asked.  As I said before, I agree the 13bn should be discussed openly by the SNP.  I also suspect that there's problems getting information from a partisan source.  Yes, I concede the SNP used the figures when it suited them.  A mistake?  Maybe.  It would be good to have a proper discussion about how good the figures are.

They already are responsible for Education etc.  The people can hold them to account.  I'm not finding it too clever either and might vote against them next time.  

 

[welshbairn]

https://www.taxresearch.org.uk/Blog/2019/08/21/the-gers-data-is-ludicrous-scotland-does-not-generate-60-of-the-uks-net-fiscal-deficit/

[harry94]

20 minutes ago, Malky3 said:

Thank you. 

It's common sense really. If the SNP can show accurately and robustly that Scotland could run and manage all the services required to make an Independent Scotland more cost effective and viable they'd have a solid argument to prove the figures in the GERS are rubbish. 

It's not so much ruling them as 'rubbish', it's providing adequate context.

Let's be quite frank about devolution, a lot of it is smoke and mirrors, it's laughable going to First Minister and asking them about their record on the economy, regardless of who they are; you may as well be speaking to fucking geese. Economic activity in Scotland isn't really defined by what happens at Holyrood - even just going through the GERS figures, you see that when you look at the onshore metrics, they all pretty much grow/shrink at the same rate as the rest of the UK. Don't get me wrong, it's a great thing and I do think Holyrood makes a difference but the idea that there's really the power there to meaningfully change the Scottish economy dramatically and potentially unlock the funding we need to fix our societal problems is just delusional. People always point to the level of spending at Holyrood increasing but that's mostly because public services are lumped in.

When you look at the UK as a whole and see the sorts of problems faced, it's not a unique issue to Scotland and it's not something which we don't see elsewhere but it's very blatantly the result of a failed economic strategy going back decades where we reacted to stagnation and productivity problems by just throwing whatever we could to the private sector for a quick gain. Yes, it fixed the productivity in some areas and gave the treasury a boost but it was akin to selling your pension off at 50 for a lump sum because you are skint and you're a bit of a drunken arsehole who can't handle money.

It is a point which I cringe about and comes across as howling at the moon but the whole political ideology in the UK is utterly fucked. Blair was a great opportunity of someone really powerful who could actually change things and his approach to the economy was to double down on the same strategy but apply some cosmetic changes by initially finding a bit of extra money through the PFI thing. The treasury then, in 2010, embarked on a project which caused societal damage which will have embodied costs down the line and years later, the IMF and economic community are saying it was not a prudent strategy and left the treasury £100bn poorer.

Then, the swing voters of the UK finally have enough and recognise that they are being deceived, how do they look to remidy this? Their papers somehow convince them that the most extreme right wing ideologies are 'anti-establishment' and confuse them into Brexit, something that will see us even poorer and more isolated.

I mean, I get it, the GERS figures have to be our starting point and there needs to be much better work done in delving into the more grey areas and articulating areas for sustainable growth in the White Paper with Brexit as a very good lesson but the idea that it's unlikely that an alternative political direction would have a real impact on growth is simply retarded. What's even worse is that an adult living in Scotland would somehow point to Westminster and assess that they are more capable of handling these matters because a few thick councillors once made an arse of a tram project.

[Baxter Parp]

SCOTLAND PROPOSES NEW POST-BREXIT FERRY ROUTE TO NETHERLANDS

https://nltimes.nl/2019/08/21/scotland-proposes-new-post-brexit-ferry-route-netherlands

Handy.

[D Angelo Barksdale]

Ah, I see some people still think McSpreader is arguing in good faith here.

[Dan Steele]

8 minutes ago, Baxter Parp said:

SCOTLAND PROPOSES NEW POST-BREXIT FERRY ROUTE TO NETHERLANDS

https://nltimes.nl/2019/08/21/scotland-proposes-new-post-brexit-ferry-route-netherlands

Handy.

Before Malky jumps in with his ludicrous blend of the out of date and pure fiction, can I say this is tremendous news. I like this bit - looks more certain than a gamble:

The company recently made 6.5 million euros available for the construction of a new cold store, and the harbor quay was extended by 100 meters, according to the broadcaster.

 

[Ira Gaines]

7 minutes ago, Henderson to deliver ..... said:

Ah, I see some people still think McSpreader is arguing in good faith here.

I honestly wonder how this is happening. Surely this shower of utterly thick c***s will get the point eventually.

[D Angelo Barksdale]