When will indyref2 happen?

[Malky3]

26 minutes ago, Double Jack D said:

It's mentioned above, and refuted by many from a pro union perspective, but the slant from the media certainly doesn't help with this. They make it easy to believe the SNP are to blame for pretty much everything. Christ even the good stuff they do is presented from the most bizarre negative viewpoint. So if you are fundamentally opposed to the idea of independence it is easy to rattle off shite like the Edinburgh Trams being an SNP failure when the reality is demonstrably different.

I was in a discussion the other day with a good friend at work who isn't hugely political but is a definite No voter. I had been listening to Stuart Campbells interview with Kenny Farquhason (sp) (a good listen by the way, its on the Wings wbsite) and I had mentioned to my work pal about how scathing he had been on Kezia Dugdale. Her response was, "well no wonder, wasn't he found guilty of calling her a liar when she said he was homophobic?" She even searched her phone for the BBC story on it and it was only when I made her fully read the article she realised that wasn't the case at all.

We can see the same happening with the Alex Salmond case just now. If you are pro union it would be easy for you to believe, based on media reporting, that Alex Salmond is guilty, it was covered up by Sturgeon, The SNP government fucked up and now the taxpayer has to pay Alex Salmond personally £500 to £750k legal costs.

Thats not how its being covered in the media. The reports I read were quite clear about the fact that Salmonds case wouldn't be heard till 2020. The articles rightly called into question tbe compitence of the Scottish government which is fair given the need for any compensation to be paid at all. 

I agree that the point you make about public perception is a fair one though. It happens both ways and a big factor in that is the sources people use. Stewart Campbell and his website have been at least as guilty of throwing muck and hoping it sticks. 

I'd love to see an informative and educational debate somewhere without all the abuse being banded around and without being told to "get out of my country". Sadly I think the reason the engagement is at the lebel its at is because its the best way to deflect from the fact that most of the answers to the most basic of quesytions can't be given. 

[Double Jack D]

19 minutes ago, Malky3 said:

Thats not how its being covered in the media. The reports I read were quite clear about the fact that Salmonds case wouldn't be heard till 2020. The articles rightly called into question tbe compitence of the Scottish government which is fair given the need for any compensation to be paid at all. 

I agree that the point you make about public perception is a fair one though. It happens both ways and a big factor in that is the sources people use. Stewart Campbell and his website have been at least as guilty of throwing muck and hoping it sticks. 

I'd love to see an informative and educational debate somewhere without all the abuse being banded around and without being told to "get out of my country". Sadly I think the reason the engagement is at the lebel its at is because its the best way to deflect from the fact that most of the answers to the most basic of quesytions can't be given. 

Sorry but your first paragraph kinda shows what I'm taking about.

The reports only ever mention Nicola Sturgeon and imply it is failings of her Government when in reality the failures belong to Lesley Evans and the Scottish Civil Service who developed the frankly ludicrous process whereby a defendant would not be told what they were being accused of and leaked details of the accused to the media. The competence of the Scottish Government has nothing to do with it.

Agreed re Wings, however I would suggest that most of his muck is heavily backed up by references to sources and evidence. That cant always be said of the MSM.

Totally agree on the third paragraph. It would be great to see a source of pure facts for people to access and make up their own minds. Naively I thought in the build up to 2014 that this would be the BBC but it failed spectacularly in that regard and still does.

[Malky3]

12 minutes ago, Double Jack D said:

Sorry but your first paragraph kinda shows what I'm taking about.

The reports only ever mention Nicola Sturgeon and imply it is failings of her Government when in reality the failures belong to Lesley Evans and the Scottish Civil Service who developed the frankly ludicrous process whereby a defendant would not be told what they were being accused of and leaked details of the accused to the media. The competence of the Scottish Government has nothing to do with it.

Agreed re Wings, however I would suggest that most of his muck is heavily backed up by references to sources and evidence. That cant always be said of the MSM.

Totally agree on the third paragraph. It would be great to see a source of pure facts for people to access and make up their own minds. Naively I thought in the build up to 2014 that this would be the BBC but it failed spectacularly in that regard and still does.

Evans is the Permanent Secretary to the Scottish Government. What you are suggesting is the equivalent of not blaming Neil Lennon for a poor result in Europe the other night cause Scott Brown gave away a cheap penalty. 

Evans didn't lose in court to Salmond, it was the Scottish Government Salmond went after and it was the Government who admiited it botched its enquiry. The media reports are accurate. 

[D Angelo Barksdale]

That feeling when you wake up in the morning after a heavy night out, you know you've made a c**t of it, but can't really remember how, so you just ignore the feeling and try and power through it.

Absolutely the same energy with these posts.

[Double Jack D]

35 minutes ago, Malky3 said:

Evans is the Permanent Secretary to the Scottish Government. What you are suggesting is the equivalent of not blaming Neil Lennon for a poor result in Europe the other night cause Scott Brown gave away a cheap penalty. 

Evans didn't lose in court to Salmond, it was the Scottish Government Salmond went after and it was the Government who admiited it botched its enquiry. The media reports are accurate. 

I'm suggesting that the overall competence of the Government to run the country shouldn't be assessed by an unelected civil servant unable to do her job properly.

[jimmer]

Spoiler

Hope to see you all at the march for independence in Aberdeen this Saturday 17th August. Starts Albyn Place 1.30pm. Many thousands are expected. People of Aberdeen have had enough of Barney Crocket and his dysfunctional Labour/Tory administration. Their days are numbered along with the Union Jack which he flies from our Townhouse tower.

 

[jimmer]

Hope to see you all at the march for independence in Aberdeen this Saturday 17th August. Starts Albyn Place 1.30pm. Many thousands are expected. People of Aberdeen have had enough of Barney Crocket and his dysfunctional Labour/Tory administration. Their days are numbered along with the Union Jack which he flies from our Townhouse tower.

 

[strichener]

15 hours ago, Baxter Parp said:

19 hours ago, Henderson to deliver ..... said:

It's a bit disingenuous to lay the trams fiasco at the door of the Scottish government.

Strichner is a fucking idiot that can't tell the difference between a Labour council and the Scottish Government.

It was the Scottish government that passed the legislation, provided the majority of the funding and latterly dictated the project scope by threatening to refuse to hand over grant money.  Of course the start of the trams project was prior to the current government being in power but the SNP increased the grant by £125m in 2007.  However if someone can use the example of Crossrail (Labour - 2007) as a vanity project from Westminster then the trams is as close to a Scottish example as you can get.

If the conversation is too nuanced for your simple head then just stick me on ignore and do us both a favour rather than making an arse of yourself.

[Baxter Parp]

It was the Scottish government that passed the legislation, provided the majority of the funding and latterly dictated the project scope by threatening to refuse to hand over grant money.  Of course the start of the trams project was prior to the current government being in power but the SNP increased the grant by £125m in 2007.  However if someone can use the example of Crossrail (Labour - 2007) as a vanity project from Westminster then the trams is as close to a Scottish example as you can get.

If the conversation is too nuanced for your simple head then just stick me on ignore and do us both a favour rather than making an arse of yourself.

If you want a Scottish Government vanity project that wasted vast sums of money you go for Holyrood itself you silly bugger. I'll give you nuance, the Scottish Government didn't want the trams and were defeated by the opposition. The trams are 90% down to Edinburgh's Labour Council.

 

[D Angelo Barksdale]

1 hour ago, strichener said:

It was the Scottish government that passed the legislation, provided the majority of the funding and latterly dictated the project scope by threatening to refuse to hand over grant money.  Of course the start of the trams project was prior to the current government being in power but the SNP increased the grant by £125m in 2007.  However if someone can use the example of Crossrail (Labour - 2007) as a vanity project from Westminster then the trams is as close to a Scottish example as you can get.

If the conversation is too nuanced for your simple head then just stick me on ignore and do us both a favour rather than making an arse of yourself.

The project was run by the council and it's various arms length bodies. Therefore, all subsequent funding, technical and contractual f**k ups belong to them. It's patently unfair to blame the government for the council's inability to run a project in anything approaching a semi competent manner.

The tram was agitated for by the Labour led council and passed through parliament by the Lib-Lab coalition. After winning the 2007 election, the minority SNP administration tried to cancel the project but were defeated twice, they then agreed to go ahead with it on the condition no more public money was spent.

Again, a bit disingenuous to say they 'dictated the project scope'. They witheld funding due to the utterly stupid council decision to end the line at Haymarket, (a move that would have rendered the entire project virtually worthless and an even bigger waste of money given that they had dug up half the city centre and Leith Walk already), and insisted that the line continued to St Andrews Square. The line eventually continued to York Place.

 

[Malky3]

So another day passes with no Nationalists "demolishing" any arguments against Independence. 

[D Angelo Barksdale]

*Ben Shapiro voice

'Debate me you cowards'

[dirty dingus]

[Inanimate Carbon Rod]

A day passes and Malky remains a VL.

[BawWatchin]

Philyerboots hasn't posted since this Malky3 troll came along. Just saying.

[welshbairn]

1 hour ago, This time Perthshirebell said:

It isn't Phil.   It's probably McSpreader though.  

Even McSpreader wasn't this boring.

[Malky3]

Still no answers - just a sad, dull and boring guessing game. Sums up Scottish Nationalism for me. No-one within the movement has any figures whatsoever, just a rather fanciful guess that Westminster overcharges Scotland and that somehow once Scotland has independence Westminster will charge Scotland less than it currently does.  The Nationalist movement can't sell it any other way because they know that the costs of setting up a new Scottish run DWP, Defence programme., HMRC etc would cost more than it currently does and it would be nowhere near as efficient or as reliable. It's a leap of faith I think very few of the 55% will be stupid enough to take. 

I'm Malky, lads. It's not even an alias. 

[BawWatchin]

5 minutes ago, Malky3 said:

Still no answers - just a sad, dull and boring guessing game. Sums up Scottish Nationalism for me. No-one within the movement has any figures whatsoever, just a rather fanciful guess that Westminster overcharges Scotland and that somehow once Scotland has independence Westminster will charge Scotland less than it currently does.  The Nationalist movement can't sell it any other way because they know that the costs of setting up a new Scottish run DWP, Defence programme., HMRC etc would cost more than it currently does and it would be nowhere near as efficient or as reliable. It's a leap of faith I think very few of the 55% will be stupid enough to take. 

I'm Malky, lads. It's not even an alias. 

We don't have the figures, because the UK Government won't provide them m8. Instead, we have "GERS", which assumes that the other half of Scotlands tax money held by Wesminster + 13bn borrowed by Westminster (in Scotlands name) is spent by the UK Government in Scotland proportionally the same as the Scottish Government spends it's  ̶p̶̶̶o̶̶̶c̶̶̶k̶̶̶e̶̶̶t̶̶̶m̶̶̶o̶̶̶n̶̶̶e̶̶̶y̶̶̶ ̶̶̶b̶̶̶u̶̶̶d̶̶̶g̶̶̶e̶̶̶t̶̶̶ pocketmoney.

Edited August 16, 2019 by BawWatchin

[sophia]

5 minutes ago, Malky3 said:

I'm Malky, lads. It's not even an alias. 

An independent Scotland will be an inclusive environment whereby, amongst other modern things, automatic assumptions about gender won't be a thing.

[ICTJohnboy]

1 minute ago, sophia said:

An independent Scotland will be an inclusive environment whereby, amongst other modern things, automatic assumptions about gender won't be a thing.

 

When did you have the operation?