When will indyref2 happen?

[Inanimate Carbon Rod]

See at the end of the day, it comes down to this, do you trust Rees-Mogg, Boris, Truss and Javid to act in Scotlands best interests or do you trust the people of Scotland. This is the only question that needs answered.

[Anonapersona]

3 hours ago, Malky3 said:

... I am open to persuasion to vote for Independence.

 

 Please. Stop.

[oneteaminglasgow]

See at the end of the day, it comes down to this, do you trust Rees-Mogg, Boris, Truss and Javid to act in Scotlands best interests or do you trust the people of Scotland. This is the only question that needs answered.

I think you’re forgetting the most important things

1. Does Alex Salmond shag grannies?

2. Does Nicola sturgeon look like Jimmy Krankie?

If yes to both, then I really don’t see how independence can be considered a viable option for Scotland.

[Baxter Parp]

Why can the Scottish government not overspend?  Over which period of time can it not overspend?
Taking the deficit as detailed in GERS (if that is what you want to use) then the £13bln deficit is quite clearly laid out in the report.  The extent to which you believe GERS is entirely down to the individual but you cannot ignore that Scotland's Future described it as "the authoritative publication on Scotland’s public finances." and detailed that it would have been used as "a starting point for discussions of Scotland’s fiscal position following independence."
At least you now appear to be getting to the point where you understand that the Scottish budget is based primarily on UK expenditure and not Scottish Income.

https://www.taxresearch.org.uk/Blog/2018/08/22/gers-really-is-crap/

I don't think anybody knew how crap GERS was in 2014.

[Baxter Parp]

f**k me! Someone posting they believe a politician is telling the truth. [emoji849]

Unionist not used to politicians that tell the truth.

[strichener]

3 hours ago, BawWatchin said:

Give me an independent Scotland with a stable benefit and pensions system over the absolute clusterfuck we have right now every time.

For free?  That is the only context under which your last post would make any sense.

[strichener]

3 hours ago, Double Jack D said:

Nicola Sturgeon stated during FM questions on 27th June this year

"Under the current devolution settlement, the Scottish Parliament is not permitted to overspend its budget and I do not think that it takes too much consideration to understand why we need to plan carefully to make sure that we do not do so."

That is the First Minister addressing the parliament, therefore I'm going to assume she is telling the truth.

I fully understand how Holyrood is funded however that isn't really relevant to my queries. It cannot be Holyrood contributing to the deficit if it cannot and does not overspend. 

So, who is spending it... and what on?

If I budget to spend £1m this year and my income is £10k then quite clearly I am not overspending my budget whilst at the same time my budget is patently not self-financed.  If you do understand fully how Holyrood is funded then you are quite clearly at it with these posts.

 

[BawWatchin]

7 minutes ago, strichener said:

For free?  That is the only context under which your last post would make any sense.

Nothing is free. So you make sure you have enough to cover it instead. It's clear to see that the UK Government can't manage an economy properly. They can't sustain the current pensions and benefit system without building up unsustainable levels of debt, in which they inflict a share of onto Scotland.

Scotland is heading towards economic ruin under British tory dictatorship.

[tirso]

4 hours ago, Malky3 said:

Blind faith, it certainly is especially in light of all the available evidence. However thank you for your excellent post and honest and fair assessment. 

I'm no expert either and as I said many time already I am open to persuasion to vote for Independence. What I need is solid tangible evidence that our country will be better than it is today. What won't change my mind is having nationalists queue up to accuse me of being in the Orange Order or telling me to "get out of my country". Hopefully your post here opens the door to a better level of discussion. 

Sterlingisation is the policy that an Independent Scotland couldn't have a deficit. Not my words but those of many economists. This is one of the articles on the tax research website 

https://www.taxresearch.org.uk/Blog/2018/07/01/sterlingisation-is-how-to-destroy-hope-for-an-independent-scotland/

 

I don't believe it is blind faith when you're talking about the type of Economic advisors that are in favour of independence though.  It's not tirso or wee malky off the internet that's saying it's eminently possible.  

There are experts on either side of the debate but I haven't seen any that suggest Scotland couldn't be economically competent (from the IFS to Mirrrlees, Grosshart or others).  The difference is about whether it would economically be better off.  Which in fairness was your original question and quite different.  Where I think some No supporters overstep the mark is to suggest things like Scotland would be uniquely unable to hold a deficit, wouldn't get in the EU, couldn't do the very basics.  I just think that's jumping the shark.

In terms of sterlingisation, I'm doubtful it would be put forward if Scotland couldn't hold a deficit in the way you're presenting.   I'm not an expert but it seems too extreme.  

We simply should be able to do this.  If we're not, there's something seriously wrong with how we have been governed.  One way or another the political and emotional strings of the Union are falling apart.  We owe it to the younger generation to explore how to make Scotland a vibrant economic place that COULD be independent if the vote goes that way (as is becoming increasingly likely).  It's mutually beneficial whatever way the vote falls too.  

[BawWatchin]

5 minutes ago, strichener said:

If I budget to spend £1m this year and my income is £10k then quite clearly I am not overspending my budget whilst at the same time my budget is patently not self-financed.  If you do understand fully how Holyrood is funded then you are quite clearly at it with these posts.

Holyroods spending budget is published every year and is almost always around 50% less than the tax revenues we send to the treasury. If you're going to pretend you didn't know that then you are quite clearly at it with these posts.

Edited August 14, 2019 by BawWatchin

[DiegoDiego]

Scotland is heading towards economic ruin under British tory dictatorship.

You've obviously never experienced a dictatorship.

[BawWatchin]

16 minutes ago, DiegoDiego said:

You've obviously never experienced a dictatorship.

Being ruled over by somebody or a group that has no mandate to rule over your country = dictatorship.

[strichener]

15 minutes ago, BawWatchin said:

Holyroods spending budget is published every year and is almost always around 50% less than the tax revenues we send to the treasury. If you're going to pretend you didn't know that then you are quite clearly at it with these posts.

Yet in devolved areas we spend more than the UK average.  Are there magic money trees in Edinburgh that the Scottish Government have access to?

I can only use figures from 2017/18 as 18/19 hasn't been published yet here is what we spend as a percentage of UK average:

Service area	2017–18
Scotland as % of UK
Social protection (inc. benefits and pensions)	106.9%
Health	107.1%
Education and training	116.3%
Transport	150.0%
Recreation, culture and religion	144.5%
Enterprise and economic development	185.6%
Investment (capital) spending	130.6%
Day-to-day (current) spending	111.2%

[Double Jack D]

29 minutes ago, strichener said:

If I budget to spend £1m this year and my income is £10k then quite clearly I am not overspending my budget whilst at the same time my budget is patently not self-financed.  If you do understand fully how Holyrood is funded then you are quite clearly at it with these posts.

 

What about if your income was £60, your budget was £30, you spent £30, someone else spent £43 on your behalf and told you that you still needed them to make financial decisions for you because you couldn't afford to do it by yourself because you have a £13 deficit?

 

 

[DiegoDiego]

Being ruled over by somebody or a group that has no mandate to rule over your country = dictatorship.

It's not really though, is it?

[Baxter Parp]

If I budget to spend £1m this year and my income is £10k then quite clearly I am not overspending my budget whilst at the same time my budget is patently not self-financed.  If you do understand fully how Holyrood is funded then you are quite clearly at it with these posts.
 

We don't get an income, dimwit.

[BawWatchin]

40 minutes ago, strichener said:

Yet in devolved areas we spend more than the UK average.  Are there magic money trees in Edinburgh that the Scottish Government have access to?

I can only use figures from 2017/18 as 18/19 hasn't been published yet here is what we spend as a percentage of UK average:

Service area	2017–18
Scotland as % of UK
Social protection (inc. benefits and pensions)	106.9%
Health	107.1%
Education and training	116.3%
Transport	150.0%
Recreation, culture and religion	144.5%
Enterprise and economic development	185.6%
Investment (capital) spending	130.6%
Day-to-day (current) spending	111.2%

We may spend more than the UK average, but we're not spending over the financial budget. On top of the 33 billion budget there is additional money raised through devolved taxation.

31 minutes ago, DiegoDiego said:

44 minutes ago, BawWatchin said:

Being ruled over by somebody or a group that has no mandate to rule over your country = dictatorship.

It's not really though, is it?

It really is. Perhaps you need to learn what dictatorship means.

[Malky3]

3 hours ago, Brother Blades said:

Whilst all the financial arguments are valid & necessary, it seems that’s all that Wee Malky fae Glasgow has....
What about the Indy supporters who want Scotland to be Independent for the following reasons.
1. Remove ourselves from the ever increasing isolationism & xenophobia being shown in other parts of the UK.
2. Bring democracy closer to the people.
3. A fairer & more forward looking society.
4. Actually having a government that our nation has voted for, with full fiscal autonomy.

As has been stated numerous times previously, if Scotland is “failing” under the current arrangements, surely its time to try something new?

I don't think Scotland is failing. We're enjoying the benefit of being the worlds 5th biggest economy. We've got low levels of unemployment, low interest rates, low inflation and salaries that are rising ahead of inflation. I'm doing pretty well personally and my kids are doing well in their chosen professions. Thats why the economic argument is important to me. 

I have some sympathy with number 2 on your list. Devolution - which I supportrd - was supposed to fix that. However I fear it hasn't. Many of the local authorities in Scotland are increasingly frustrated by the Scottish Parliaments grab of powers from them. 

Number 3 cannot happen in a positive way unless you can afford it. We could make things more equal by chasing the wealthy out of Scotland with high taxation - as many nationalists seem to call for - but all that means is there is a far smaller financial pool to share out equally as the over all tax take falls and foreign  investment dries up. Personally I prefer to see us all being wealthier rather than more equal. I don't care how my life measures against Simon Cowell, just that I'm financially comfortabble. 

4 is also impossible without our own currency. Unfortunately the SNP policy is for sterlingisation. Do a quick search, read up on it and you'll see why fiscal autonomy is not being proposed as part of the nationalist deal. 

And number 1 is slightly strange if you don't mind me saying so. The nationalists have stoked anti English xenophobia and isolationism all my life. A hard border between us and our closest friends and neighbours seems silly whether its Brexit or Indy Ref 2

Edited August 14, 2019 by Malky3

[BawWatchin]

Yesser: Why shouldn't Scotland be independent?

Yoon: Because look how pathetic Scotlands economy is performing, it would be doomed with independence.

Yesser: If Scotlands economy is performing so poorly as part of the UK, then isn't it time we tried something else?

Yoon: I don't think Scotlands economy is performing poorly....

[strichener]

29 minutes ago, Double Jack D said:

What about if your income was £60, your budget was £30, you spent £30, someone else spent £43 on your behalf and told you that you still needed them to make financial decisions for you because you couldn't afford to do it by yourself because you have a £13 deficit?

 

 

If I was aware of what the £43 was being spent on and calculated that it was less than 43 but more than 30 then I would see that as a good deal.

What I wouldn't do is ask for the responsibility over the 43 and then when I get control over parts of it, decide that it was easier just to let the other party continue to administer it.