When will indyref2 happen?

[Inanimate Carbon Rod]

Like I've said I'm a bit long in the tooth to try that with. In my lifetime I've seen proper slum housing - local authority owned - riddled with damp, barely waterproof and without an inside toilet. I've seen unemployment levels of more than 3million. I've lived through the three day week where we lived by candle light. I've lived through miners strikes, soup kitchens, rat infested rubbish piled high in every town and city. I've seen poverty stricken pensioners being delivered food parcels made up by local school kids. 
My Dad lived through rationing, a benefits system that saw a parish assessor take all your personal belongings away before granting welfare, and Nazi bombing. 
Before him we're talking about debtors prisons and work houses. An era where kids were taken from their families because they were poor. 
Its  been pretty obvious that things have improved massively for those at the bottom.....even those that have made a choice never to do a days work in their lifetime. So spare me your left wing drivel. 

If you’ve lived through that then why are you so keen to have the brexiteers drag us back to 3 day weeks etc?

[Baxter Parp]

The same OBR that got their predictions wrong when they predicted recession immediately after the Brexit vote. 
Regardless of when the figures came from the preceeding 5 years have shown us that the finanial predictions the SNP based their whole white paper on were wildly inaccurate. Thankfully Scotland voted No. 

What figures should have been used instead?

[John Lambies Doos]

I like how no voters here and Tories down south always trot out the line 'Scotland had it's chance and wanted to keep the Union'.  As if absolutely nothing has happened/changed in UK or European politics in the last half decade.
Utter fucking simpletons, and I can't stress that enough.  The logic of people requiring immediate lobotomies. 

Swinson being prime at this.

[Baxter Parp]

Nonsense. All your ecomic and fiscal levers would be controlled from Brussels. 

You seriously undermine your case with this brainless dross.

 

Public spending as % of GDP (Dec 2018)

FRE 56.0

FIN 53.1

BEL 52.4

DEN 51.4

SWE 49.9

NOR 48.7

ITA 48.6

AUSTRIA 48.5

GRE 46.7

*** 46.5

CRO 46.4

CYP 44.7

PORT 44.0

GER 43.9

LUX 43.1

SLOVE 42.4

NETH 42.2

POL 41.5

EST 39.5

JAP 38.9

UK 38.5

 

The EU countries with their economic and fiscal levers controlled by Brussels, there.

 

 

[Baxter Parp]

The UK retained a veto and kept our own fiscal levers. This allowed us to escape the worst effects of the 2008 banking crisis in a way that Iceland and Ireland couldn't. We were even able to help bail out the Irish economy by borrowing cheaply and lending to Ireland at a profit. 

Iceland and Ireland are now doing better than the UK.

[Mastermind]

We have all had enough of these English charlatans ruling Scotland. Here in Aberdeen we have their little helpers in the shape of a shambolic minority Labour council. Their leader – Barney Crockett continues to fly the Union Jack from the Townhouse to show his undying support for this corruption of our democratic right. I would urge the good people of Scotland to join the All Under One Banner / Yes March here in Aberdeen on Saturday 17th August
starting at Albyn Place 1.30pm.

[emoji23][emoji23][emoji23]

[DeeTillEhDeh]

So who is this roaster the new incarnation of?

Muckspreader?

[Benjamin_Nevis]

So who is this roaster the new incarnation of?

Muckspreader?

Probably. He was doing ok for a while but has devolved into dribbling Yoon nonsense [emoji23]

[Detournement]

2 hours ago, renton said:

That's besides your point though, the UK didn't join the Euro right enough, then again no one has to. Certainly it's de jure that all new signatories say they will once they reach convergence, de facto they just make sure that they never quite get there. Scotland can promise to join the Euro but never actually do so. This would not count against it in terms of joining up.

Thus Scotland could retain full control of it's fiscal levers as well as it's broader tax based economic levers, but even if it did decide to go full in and join the Euro, how would that be any different to maintaining the current arrangement where the BoE sets interest rates in order to benefit the City of London and the South East of England alone and where Scotland has literally no influence. 

Would we be able to join the EU if we were piggybacking Sterling though?

 

 

[Inanimate Carbon Rod]

Would we be able to join the EU if we were piggybacking Sterling though?
 
 

Yes.

[Ira Gaines]

You know things are looking good for indy when multiple idiot yoon trolls come out of the woodshed.

[Double Jack D]

3 hours ago, Malky3 said:

See, I would argue that our political outlook is far more closely aligned to the Welsh, English and Northern Irish than it is to say Hungary, Poland, Croatia, Greece and even France, Spain and Italy. 

I'd also argue that having argued for years that Westminster doesn't listen to Scotland, despite the number of recent top jobs held in the UK Government by Scots, I think the SNP would find it far harder to get Scottish interests listened to in the European Parliament. 

Like I've said my measure is what the status quo provides us with versus a step into the unknown. I'd need to be convinced by the quality of politician I was entrusting to make change successful. I don't see compitence anywhere in the SNP. Certainly not enough to give me the faith to put my kids future in their hands

I would argue Scottish Independence, should European membership be continued, offers Scotland more stability than a no-deal Brexit. 

Status Quo is firmly off the table regardless.

SNP MEP's are part of a larger political group from several nations (including Hungary, Poland, Croatia, Greece and even France, Spain and Italy ) with similar interests in the EU, their voices are being heard far louder than the biggest party England sent to Brussels.

[Double Jack D]

2 hours ago, Malky3 said:

The UK retained a veto and kept our own fiscal levers. This allowed us to escape the worst effects of the 2008 banking crisis in a way that Iceland and Ireland couldn't. We were even able to help bail out the Irish economy by borrowing cheaply and lending to Ireland at a profit. 

I'm not sure this is 100% factual.

Also, not convinced that Iceland or Ireland are particularly envious of how the UK has coped with the financial crisis since 2008. The way they pound is going we're going to wish we joined the Euro in 2014. 

[Detournement]

The UK actually coped with the crash well then cut it's own throat by depressing demand via austerity.

Iceland isn't in the EU and wisely defaulted on it's banks' external debts. Ireland is keeping it's head above water by being the centre of European tax avoidance.

[topcat(The most tip top)]

The UK actually coped with the crash well then cut it's own throat by depressing demand via austerity.

Keeping hold of your own fiscal levers isn’t much use if you pull when you should push

[Malky3]

Wow, I log off to do some work and log back on to 20+ notifications. It's almost like the Nationalist midge is out looking for fresh blood! 

 

[MuckleMoo]

Renton dishing out telts like confetti

[Malky3]

4 hours ago, MixuFixit said:

Free at the point of use higher education, prescriptions, no compulsory redundancy for the public sector workforce, viewing those who immigrate here as a good thing, treating violent crime and drug use as primarily public health rather than criminal problems.

They're not perfect (e.g. Scottish carbon emissions are actually marginally higher than rUK) but on these and other areas they are streets ahead of the UK government. On this evidence I see the loss of current constitutional restraints with great optimism.

I don't agree with today's Bin Men and Dinner Ladies funding tomorrows bankers and doctors. To me that isn't common sense. I actually think that the English system, which is essentially a graduate tax makes far more sense. The Scottish system means that we have to educate other Europeans who will never contribute to the Scottish tax take for free. It's actually a crazy idea. 

There's also no such thing as free prescriptions. They all have to be paid for even if it is indirectly through taxation. The money that the SNP put into this scheme which granted free prescriptions to the middle and upper classes - those on benefits were enjoying not paying for their prescriptions long before the SNP came into office - has diverted funds out of patient care and our of the NHS. 

Neither of those moves were common sense. They were a shameless attempt to buy middle class votes. 

I can't argue with you regarding public sector redundancies cause I know nothing about them either North or South of the border.

I'd argue that successive UK Governments have also viewed immigration as a good thing. It's the respective electorates who aren't so enlightened and I can tell you now the population of Scotland is no more open armed to "settlers" then those of our counterparts across the rest of the UK. 

And violent crime should always be dealt with as a criminal problem. I know the SNP are soft on crime but I don't think even they would treat a mass murderer to private healthcare rather than a prison sentence. 

[Ira Gaines]

Imagine being such a sad sack that you log onto a football forum for the sole reason to troll folk on a politics sub forum. And I bet Malky3 is the sort of fucking loser who actually thinks it's a cool thing to do.

What a sad sack.

[doulikefish]

I don't agree with today's Bin Men and Dinner Ladies funding tomorrows bankers and doctors. To me that isn't common sense. I actually think that the English system, which is essentially a graduate tax makes far more sense. The Scottish system means that we have to educate other Europeans who will never contribute to the Scottish tax take for free. It's actually a crazy idea. 
There's also no such thing as free prescriptions. They all have to be paid for even if it is indirectly through taxation. The money that the SNP put into this scheme which granted free prescriptions to the middle and upper classes - those on benefits were enjoying not paying for their prescriptions long before the SNP came into office - has diverted funds out of patient care and our of the NHS. 
Neither of those moves were common sense. They were a shameless attempt to buy middle class votes. 
I can't argue with you regarding public sector redundancies cause I know nothing about them either North or South of the border.
I'd argue that successive UK Governments have also viewed immigration as a good thing. It's the respective electorates who aren't so enlightened and I can tell you now the population of Scotland is no more open armed to "settlers" then those of our counterparts across the rest of the UK. 
And violent crime should always be dealt with as a criminal problem. I know the SNP are soft on crime but I don't think even they would treat a mass murderer to private healthcare rather than a prison sentence. 

Yip