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When will indyref2 happen?


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Indyref2  

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10 minutes ago, Baxter Parp said:

The opposite.

"Locational charging means Scottish generators produce about 12% of UK generation but account for 40% of the transmission costs, or about £100 million per year more than generators in the South."

https://www.webarchive.org.uk/wayback/archive/20170107182006/http://www.gov.scot/Topics/Business-Industry/Energy/Infrastructure/TransmissionCharging

I posted on this very issue many years back but it has nothing to do with government subsidies.

Here in the North we know about subsidising other areas as we alone (old Hydro area) are responsible for meeting the extra costs of transmission to Shetland.

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3 hours ago, strichener said:

 Renewable energy is unquestionably subsidised. 

Would you like to help us by telling us about the forms of large scale electricity generation that haven't had government help?

Clue: they all have

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1 hour ago, strichener said:

I posted on this very issue many years back but it has nothing to do with government subsidies.

Here in the North we know about subsidising other areas as we alone (old Hydro area) are responsible for meeting the extra costs of transmission to Shetland.

UK has biggest fossil fuel subsidies in the EU, finds commission

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2019/jan/23/uk-has-biggest-fossil-fuel-subsidies-in-the-eu-finds-commission

What's more the new nuclear plant will have the most heavily subsidised energy in the UK when it opens.

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3 minutes ago, sophia said:

Would you like to help us by telling us about the forms of large scale electricity generation that haven't had government help?

Clue: they all have

If you base your definition of subsidies on tax not collected AND accept that 5% tax on fuel is a subsidy to energy users then I agree.  Otherwise you are wrong.  Using price-gap methodology, the UK does not currently subsidise fossil fuels.

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22 minutes ago, Baxter Parp said:

UK has biggest fossil fuel subsidies in the EU, finds commission

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2019/jan/23/uk-has-biggest-fossil-fuel-subsidies-in-the-eu-finds-commission

What's more the new nuclear plant will have the most heavily subsidised energy in the UK when it opens.

See my reply to Sophia.  I don't believe that every household energy user feels that paying 5% vat instead of the standard rate of 20% is them receiving a subsidy, the Eurostat data does and therefore Britain could eliminate this statistical subsidy by increasing VAT on fuel to 20%.  It just shows how meaningless this data is and how the definitions can be construed to give any result that you want.

If I could have guessed which link you would have posted from Google without understanding the implications, it would have been this one.:lol:

Nuclear power is already subsidised but that doesn't help your argument as we again generate more than our population share of nuclear energy.

Edited by strichener
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11 hours ago, tirso said:

Not saying you're wrong but surely the Scottish Government civil servants would include appropriate revenue for these streams.

They do it for oil so why wouldn't they do it for Energy?

I'm not saying GERS is necessarily accurate but its' the figures produced now by the pro-independence government.  It's what they based the white paper on.  I'm sceptical such a material amount wouldn't be factored in.

No its not, there are 26 figures in GERS and 25 are provided by London.

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https://amp.theguardian.com/uk-news/2019/jul/25/nicola-sturgeon-calls-for-new-scotland-independence-vote

Good.

What is not so good is that Boris will either reject devolving the s.30 power along with denying his consent to a new vote......or more likely just ignore her.

You can only imagine that the Tories short term plan is to totally marginalise the Scottish parliament, leading to a longer term gradual neutering of its powers and status. Just like with Brexit, they will be looking to take back control.

The next year or so are absolutely critical to our country. Given that a consensual referendum is not happening, I really hope the indy eadership have a plan B route to independence sorted............or we're doomed.

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The comments on the HYS underneath the Sturgeon article on the bbc are at Harriet levels of seeming upset.  The thread is swimming in a cocktail of tears, vitriol and pish. 

Edited by HTG
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The comments on the HYS underneath the Sturgeon article on the bbc are at Harriet levels of seeming upset.  The thread is swimming in a cocktail of tears, vitriol and pish. 
It's tremendous reading. I think "Drew Stirling" might (hopefully) have a coronary [emoji23]
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3 hours ago, Day of the Lords said:

It's tremendous reading. I think "Drew Stirling" might (hopefully) have a coronary emoji23.png

If he does, he can console himself that thanks to the best performing NHS in his land of milk and honey, he might actually survive. And he'll have to blame wee Krankie - that should tip him over. 

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22 hours ago, git-intae-thum said:

https://amp.theguardian.com/uk-news/2019/jul/25/nicola-sturgeon-calls-for-new-scotland-independence-vote

Good.

What is not so good is that Boris will either reject devolving the s.30 power along with denying his consent to a new vote......or more likely just ignore her.

You can only imagine that the Tories short term plan is to totally marginalise the Scottish parliament, leading to a longer term gradual neutering of its powers and status. Just like with Brexit, they will be looking to take back control.

The next year or so are absolutely critical to our country. Given that a consensual referendum is not happening, I really hope the indy eadership have a plan B route to independence sorted............or we're doomed.

The truth is that the Scottish Parliament don't really have the adequate powers to do their job most effectively. The commission set up by Lord Smith in the aftermath of the 2014 vote was a complete clusterfuck and one of the big disappointments of the SNP leadership I had was that they didn't really come out forcefully about it, perhaps as a strategy of trying to set themselves up as a constructive partner with Labour in 2015. To make the most of devolution, the parliament really needs to understand the economy by having the correct access to data, to have a mechanism to combat against underspend with multi-year budgets (which is really hard with the way the block grant is currently allocated) and to have a collection of tax powers that are actually consistent and enforceable (i.e. people say income tax is devolved to Scotland - it isn't, there's just some fiddling with the bands allowed).

My big worry is in the face of that, it's going to be increasingly difficult to govern at Holyrood and that's what Westminster are backing on. Don't get me wrong, I don't think the independence vote is going to die but they might think that the 'now is not the time' spiel could be effective until about 2026 (consent has pretty much been ruled out for the next parliamentary term at Westminster too - they'd then insist on a mandate required in the next Holyrood election) and then by that point, they'd hope that the SNP have struggled to sustain the campaign and fail to win a majority indy vote in parliament (which could easily happen with a couple of percent swing).

The only way I see any movement in the next few years is maybe if Boris somehow ends up in a position where he pursues domestic constitutional change if he returns a sizeable majority and gets the opportunity for a good gerrymandering session. I really don't think he gives a f**k and in principle, I think he'd be happy enough to get rid of the Scottish seats and the more annoying Scottish MPs.

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The truth is that the Scottish Parliament don't really have the adequate powers to do their job most effectively. The commission set up by Lord Smith in the aftermath of the 2014 vote was a complete clusterfuck and one of the big disappointments of the SNP leadership I had was that they didn't really come out forcefully about it, perhaps as a strategy of trying to set themselves up as a constructive partner with Labour in 2015. To make the most of devolution, the parliament really needs to understand the economy by having the correct access to data, to have a mechanism to combat against underspend with multi-year budgets (which is really hard with the way the block grant is currently allocated) and to have a collection of tax powers that are actually consistent and enforceable (i.e. people say income tax is devolved to Scotland - it isn't, there's just some fiddling with the bands allowed).
My big worry is in the face of that, it's going to be increasingly difficult to govern at Holyrood and that's what Westminster are backing on. Don't get me wrong, I don't think the independence vote is going to die but they might think that the 'now is not the time' spiel could be effective until about 2026 (consent has pretty much been ruled out for the next parliamentary term at Westminster too - they'd then insist on a mandate required in the next Holyrood election) and then by that point, they'd hope that the SNP have struggled to sustain the campaign and fail to win a majority indy vote in parliament (which could easily happen with a couple of percent swing).
The only way I see any movement in the next few years is maybe if Boris somehow ends up in a position where he pursues domestic constitutional change if he returns a sizeable majority and gets the opportunity for a good gerrymandering session. I really don't think he gives a f**k and in principle, I think he'd be happy enough to get rid of the Scottish seats and the more annoying Scottish MPs.
Boris Johnson, pioneer and founder of Scottish Independence.

I'd take it.
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15 minutes ago, AUFC90 said:

Boris Johnson, pioneer and founder of Scottish Independence.

I'd take it.

 

Just heard on BBC News 24 that BJ has given himself an extra title - as well as PM he is now officially Minister for the Union.

That can only help us.

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7 minutes ago, ICTJohnboy said:

Just heard on BBC News 24 that BJ has given himself an extra title - as well as PM he is now officially Minister for the Union.

That can only help us.

The whole "Awesome Foursome" thing is fucking nauseating.

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32 minutes ago, ICTJohnboy said:

 

Just heard on BBC News 24 that BJ has given himself an extra title - as well as PM he is now officially Minister for the Union.

That can only help us.

Which union? The one he hates because it takes control away from members or the one he loves because it takes control away from members?

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10 hours ago, harry94 said:

The truth is that the Scottish Parliament don't really have the adequate powers to do their job most effectively. The commission set up by Lord Smith in the aftermath of the 2014 vote was a complete clusterfuck and one of the big disappointments of the SNP leadership I had was that they didn't really come out forcefully about it, perhaps as a strategy of trying to set themselves up as a constructive partner with Labour in 2015. To make the most of devolution, the parliament really needs to understand the economy by having the correct access to data, to have a mechanism to combat against underspend with multi-year budgets (which is really hard with the way the block grant is currently allocated) and to have a collection of tax powers that are actually consistent and enforceable (i.e. people say income tax is devolved to Scotland - it isn't, there's just some fiddling with the bands allowed).

My big worry is in the face of that, it's going to be increasingly difficult to govern at Holyrood and that's what Westminster are backing on. Don't get me wrong, I don't think the independence vote is going to die but they might think that the 'now is not the time' spiel could be effective until about 2026 (consent has pretty much been ruled out for the next parliamentary term at Westminster too - they'd then insist on a mandate required in the next Holyrood election) and then by that point, they'd hope that the SNP have struggled to sustain the campaign and fail to win a majority indy vote in parliament (which could easily happen with a couple of percent swing).

The only way I see any movement in the next few years is maybe if Boris somehow ends up in a position where he pursues domestic constitutional change if he returns a sizeable majority and gets the opportunity for a good gerrymandering session. I really don't think he gives a f**k and in principle, I think he'd be happy enough to get rid of the Scottish seats and the more annoying Scottish MPs.

This is true until the final paragraph. They will fight with everything they've got until the very last second to hold onto Scotland as they badly need our resources. There will never be a time when any UK govt is happy to let us go. I think some still don't understand in UK terms we are the goose that laid the golden egg.

Devolution was set up to fail, the Smith commission also, so they can blame the Scottish government for it and decrease support for independence. That is also why they refuse to allow drug treatment and consumption rooms even though they accept they are effective in reducing drug deaths. They want Scots dying of drugs as it's another thing they can blame the Scottish government for and thus reduce support for independence.

It's almost impossible to overstate the importance to the UK of keeping Scotland. Without us they have virtually nothing except financial wizardry and a house of cards. Everything they are going to need in the future, food land above sea level water oil gas clean energy, we have in abundance and they have virtually none of.

Edited by Kuro
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4 hours ago, Kuro said:

This is true until the final paragraph. They will fight with everything they've got until the very last second to hold into Scotland as they badly need our resources. There will never be a time when any UK give us happy to let us go. I think some still don't understand in UK terms we are the goose that paid the golden egg.

Devolution was set up to fail, the Smith commission also, so they can blame the Scottish government for it and decrease support for independence. That is also why they refuse to allow drug treatment and consumption rooms even though they accept they are effective in reducing drug deaths. They want Scots dying of drugs as it's another thing they can blame the Scottish government for and this reduce support for independence.

It's almost impossible to overstate the importance to the UK of keeping Scotland. Without us they have virtually nothing except financial wizardry and a house of cards. Everything they are going to need in the future, food land above sea level water oil gas clean energy, we have in abundance and they have virtually none of.

Wonder if this old chestnut will be brought out again

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-13765279

 

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