When will indyref2 happen?

[Mr Heliums]

On 08/03/2019 at 20:35, strichener said:

No I asked how the phrase had been misinterpreted. 

You're misinterpreting by taking the Alan Cochrane line: routinely – and intentionally –  dropping the word “opportunity” when you can in your posts, so “once in a generation” sounds more like a pledge than what it was: a call to recognise the significant opportunity of the Independence Referendum.

Politicians and activists use the “once in a generation” line all the time, without expecting it to be taken literally. It would be chaos if it was. Earlier this year, ‘once in a generation opportunity’ was applied to the prospect of rail nationalisation under Labour. Twelve months ago it referred to the call for a progressive alliance at the next general election. A decade ago the Government described its London Olympic bid as a "once-in-a-lifetime economic opportunity", quietly ignoring the UK's bids to host the previous three Olympics.

Should these statements disallow nationalisation or cross-party alliances again until our kids have grown up? Should the UK Government abandon its plans  for the 2036 Olympics on the basis of what it said before? Should we be blocked from voting on membership of Europe because that referendum was described as ‘once-in-a-lifetime’ by the then-Chancellor? No reasonable person would claim that.

And even if these statements were commitments, you can't advocate tying the hands of future voters. It's a tenet of democracy that people can change their minds – it’s why we have general elections – and if they do so in one year or twenty that’s up to them.

If the argument is that people haven’t changed their minds, that’s another thing – let’s argue about the SNP’s manifesto and mandate – but denying the right to a referendum for some indeterminate period on such a disingenuous line is unsupportable.

Edited March 10, 2019 by Mr Heliums

[strichener]

1 hour ago, Mr Heliums said:

You're misinterpreting by taking the Alan Cochrane line: routinely – and intentionally –  dropping the word “opportunity” when you can in your posts, so “once in a generation” sounds more like a pledge than what it was: a call to recognise the significant opportunity of the Independence Referendum.

Politicians and activists use the “once in a generation” line all the time, without expecting it to be taken literally. It would be chaos if it was. Earlier this year, ‘once in a generation opportunity’ was applied to the prospect of rail nationalisation under Labour. Twelve months ago it referred to the call for a progressive alliance at the next general election. A decade ago the Government described its London Olympic bid as a "once-in-a-lifetime economic opportunity", quietly ignoring the UK's bids to host the previous three Olympics.

Should these statements disallow nationalisation or cross-party alliances again until our kids have grown up? Should the UK Government abandon its plans  for the 2036 Olympics on the basis of what it said before? Should we be blocked from voting on membership of Europe because that referendum was described as ‘once-in-a-lifetime’ by the then-Chancellor? No reasonable person would claim that.

And even if these statements were commitments, you can't advocate tying the hands of future voters. It's a tenet of democracy that people can change their minds – it’s why we have general elections – and if they do so in one year or twenty that’s up to them.

If the argument is that people haven’t changed their minds, that’s another thing – let’s argue about the SNP’s manifesto and mandate – but denying the right to a referendum for some indeterminate period on such a line is unsupportable.

Including the word opportunity makes no difference to the underlying phrase, it could be a once in a generation vote, opportunity, chance etc.  It was used by the Yes campaign to confer a sense that we had one opportunity to take the future destiny of our country into our own hands.

I don't disagree that politicians use the phrase all the time, I take exception to the continued revisionism that Yes voters appear to have when challenged on this phrase.

As Sophia stated maybe it has changed since but as a campaign tool, it is gold dust for those that seek to find reason to vote no.

I note your use of the phrase disingenuous line and would ask who was using it in this manner?  Were the Scottish government, the SNP (through their leader at the time)?  It is a strange argument to make and is akin to claiming that the vow was likewise.

 

Alex Salmons himself clarified that he thought that it would be a political generation and explained this as the difference between the vote in 79 and 97.  That is what he meant by a generation.

Edited March 10, 2019 by strichener

[BawWatchin]

16 hours ago, ayrmad said:

The polls don't need to move, we just need to actually live under Brexit for a decent period then everything will happen naturally.

Nope. Because it will be "aw the Scottish Governments fault" and when the SNP are replaced with a tory/UKIP hybrid it will be too late when we realize that it had nothing to do with the Scottish Government, as they shut our parliament down.

[John Lambies Doos]

Nope. Because it will be "aw the Scottish Governments fault" and when the SNP are replaced with a tory/UKIP hybrid it will be too late when we realize that it had nothing to do with the Scottish Government, as they shut our parliament down.

If we don't vote for independence in another referendum we should just shut holyrood down.

[Highlandmagyar 2nd Tier]

39 minutes ago, John Lambies Doos said:

54 minutes ago, BawWatchin said:

Nope. Because it will be "aw the Scottish Governments fault" and when the SNP are replaced with a tory/UKIP hybrid it will be too late when we realize that it had nothing to do with the Scottish Government, as they shut our parliament down.

If we don't vote for independence in another referendum we should just shut holyrood down.

Ah! So you don't believe in democracy. It's either your way or nothing.

[John Lambies Doos]

Ah! So you don't believe in democracy. It's either your way or nothing.

Ok let's have a vote on direct rule v independence then?

[BawWatchin]

1 minute ago, Highlandmagyar 2nd Tier said:

Ah! So you don't believe in democracy. It's either your way or nothing.

No. It's either our way or Englands way.
Which is more democratic to you?

[Highlandmagyar 2nd Tier]

Just now, BawWatchin said:

No. It's either our way or Englands way.
Which is more democratic to you?

What is democratic is what the majority of Scottish people vote for.

[Highlandmagyar 2nd Tier]

Just now, John Lambies Doos said:

Just now, Highlandmagyar 2nd Tier said:

Ah! So you don't believe in democracy. It's either your way or nothing.

Ok let's have a vote on direct rule v independence then?

So you are just making it up on the hoof!

[BawWatchin]

5 minutes ago, Highlandmagyar 2nd Tier said:

What is democratic is what the majority of Scottish people vote for.

What the majority of Scottish people vote for is utterly meaningless in the UK.

[John Lambies Doos]

What the majority of Scottish people vote for is utterly meaningless in the UK.

This × 100. Not understanding this makes the Unionist points above null and void

[Highlandmagyar 2nd Tier]

Just now, BawWatchin said:

What the majority of Scottish people vote for is utterly meaningless in the UK.

So. Voting for an SNP government in Holyrood is pointless? OK.

[sureiknow]

9 minutes ago, BawWatchin said:

What the majority of Scottish people vote for is utterly meaningless in the UK.

Also within the E.U.

There will never be a truly independent Scotland within the E.U.

The E.U. will make all the " important " decisions on your behalf.

You won't really get a say in it.

[Highlandmagyar 2nd Tier]

Just now, John Lambies Doos said:

Just now, BawWatchin said:

What the majority of Scottish people vote for is utterly meaningless in the UK.

This × 100. Not understanding this makes the Unionist points above null and void

You don't understand democracy do you? You don't believe in Scottish people having any kind of parliament unless it's full independence. 

[DA Baracus]

8 minutes ago, sureiknow said:

Also within the E.U.

There will never be a truly independent Scotland within the E.U.

The E.U. will make all the " important " decisions on your behalf.

You won't really get a say in it.

[welshbairn]

Also within the E.U.

There will never be a truly independent Scotland within the E.U.

The E.U. will make all the " important " decisions on your behalf.

You won't really get a say in it.

For instance? What has the EU done that has affected you more than say, the rise in Council Tax? Or minimum alcohol pricing? Or affected your life badly in any way at all?

 

[BawWatchin]

37 minutes ago, Highlandmagyar 2nd Tier said:

So. Voting for an SNP government in Holyrood is pointless? OK.

Considering (according to the UK Government) Holyrood isn't sovereign. Then yes, it is pointless.

[BawWatchin]

38 minutes ago, sureiknow said:

Also within the E.U.

There will never be a truly independent Scotland within the E.U.

The E.U. will make all the " important " decisions on your behalf.

You won't really get a say in it.

Like what?
What "important decisions" will the EU make on our behalf? What important decisions have the EU made on the UKs behalf over the past 4 decades?

Your argument is pathetic. Considering you back the continuation of a political union that has far more control over Scotland than the EU ever has.

Edited March 10, 2019 by BawWatchin

[BawWatchin]

40 minutes ago, Highlandmagyar 2nd Tier said:

You don't understand democracy do you? You don't believe in Scottish people having any kind of parliament unless it's full independence. 

Scotland has no parliament as things stand. The UK Parliament is dictated to by the 84% and the Holyrood Parliament isn't soverign according to the UK Parliament which is dictated to by the 84%.

So it would seem you don't believe in the Scottish people having any parliament full stop.

Edited March 10, 2019 by BawWatchin

[Ira Gaines]

41 minutes ago, Highlandmagyar 2nd Tier said:

So. Voting for an SNP government in Holyrood is pointless? OK.

If Westminster does what's now expected of them, and they block another indyref, then they are blocking something that was on manifestos that were voted in. And thus yes, there is no other way of putting it than saying it doesn't matter what we vote in at Holyrood.