NotThePars Posted March 8, 2019 Share Posted March 8, 2019 peppino fucking loved to blame the lost referendum on the English settlers. I don’t think he had any links to the movement at large though, or reality in general. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Detournement Posted March 8, 2019 Share Posted March 8, 2019 40 minutes ago, NotThePars said: The Scottish independence movement, to its credit, has been exemplary in rejecting nativism, imo. That there was little reaction to the analysis that showed people born in Scotland voted Yes proves that. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Detournement Posted March 8, 2019 Share Posted March 8, 2019 3 hours ago, topcat(The most tip top) said: It's good that people still get use out of near 40 year old BBC programs designed to shut down debate and ridicule positions that the powerful didn't like. That Scottish people took part in the Empire with great enthusiasm is a fact. What is also a fact is that the great majority of the Scottish population during this period were also exploited by the same elite who plundered abroad. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 8, 2019 Share Posted March 8, 2019 10 minutes ago, Detournement said: It's good that people still get use out of near 40 year old BBC programs designed to shut down debate and ridicule positions that the powerful didn't like. That Scottish people took part in the Empire with great enthusiasm is a fact. What is also a fact is that the great majority of the Scottish population during this period were also exploited by the same elite who plundered abroad. Very True, there was little difference then and there's little difference now between the landed gentry and wealthy land owning English and Scottish, it has been and always will be a class battle but that's a narrative that scares so many people............. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antlion Posted March 8, 2019 Share Posted March 8, 2019 2 hours ago, welshbairn said: Apparently Nativism is making inroads into Scottish Nationalism, sad if true. This blog is by a Portuguese guy who married and settled here a few years ago. https://brawblether.com/2019/03/05/nativism-has-no-place-in-civic-nationalism/ The problem with nativism (aside from the fact it’s bullshit) is that the worst enemies of Scottish sovereignty have always been from certain sections of native Scottish society. The most knuckle-dragging little Britons in Scotland are not and have never been English - in fact, I dare say most English folk look on them with the same scorn and embarrassment as they look on the rabid Northern Irish unionists. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
git-intae-thum Posted March 8, 2019 Share Posted March 8, 2019 Not particularly helpful to "blame" any particular group for the last referendum. However one extremely influential group that overwhelmingly voted to reject independence was the over 55's. Scots born and non Scots born. Given that as seen UK pensions are some of the lowest among any developed countries. This is an area the independence organisation can work on. It would not be too ambitious to suggest we should be matching the pension spend of our nearest European counterparts. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
topcat(The most tip top) Posted March 8, 2019 Share Posted March 8, 2019 (edited) 2 hours ago, Detournement said: It's good that people still get use out of near 40 year old BBC programs designed to shut down debate and ridicule positions that the powerful didn't like. The "debate" I was being offered seemed to be whether I could defend 18th century European Colonialism. I wasn't shutting down debate but declining it. I'm pretty sure JC got it, even if you didn't. Edited March 8, 2019 by topcat(The most tip top) 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Heliums Posted March 8, 2019 Share Posted March 8, 2019 1 hour ago, git-intae-thum said: Given that as seen UK pensions are some of the lowest among any developed countries. This is an area the independence organisation can work on. It would not be too ambitious to suggest we should be matching the pension spend of our nearest European counterparts. There's even an argument that lower life expectancy in Scotland (another benefit of the Union?) means that effectively Scots pension contributions subsidise those in the south; post independence we'd - other things being equal - be able to afford better pensions simply because we die sooner. That's an ugly argument though. Even mentioning Pensions is dangerous. You saw last time how rationality went out of the window and Better Together preyed on that uncertainty. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Detournement Posted March 8, 2019 Share Posted March 8, 2019 1 hour ago, git-intae-thum said: It would not be too ambitious to suggest we should be matching the pension spend of our nearest European counterparts. Public spending would have to be cut in the event of independence according to the SNP. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tibbermoresaint Posted March 8, 2019 Share Posted March 8, 2019 15 minutes ago, Detournement said: Public spending would have to be cut in the event of independence according to the SNP. Really? Got a link? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Suspect Device Posted March 8, 2019 Share Posted March 8, 2019 If we wanted to balance the books then public spending would definitely have to come down, at least in the short term. Not sure why we'd want to be almost the only western country to live within our means. I see that the largest group in the poll will very soon be disappointed because it looks highly unlikely we will be voting this year. I'm still happy to wait the generation (20 years) I was promised. The vote was never about me and always about my daughter and her children. I still believe they would be better off in an independent country. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Detournement Posted March 8, 2019 Share Posted March 8, 2019 37 minutes ago, Tibbermoresaint said: Really? Got a link? Aye https://www.snp.org/snp-growth-commission/ They want to bring the deficit down to 3% within 5-10 years. The only way to do this is more austerity. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tibbermoresaint Posted March 8, 2019 Share Posted March 8, 2019 Just now, Detournement said: Aye https://www.snp.org/snp-growth-commission/ They want to bring the deficit down to 3% within 5-10 years. The only way to do this is more austerity. It isn't. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Detournement Posted March 8, 2019 Share Posted March 8, 2019 1 minute ago, Tibbermoresaint said: It isn't. How do you suggest it could happen otherwise? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Suspect Device Posted March 8, 2019 Share Posted March 8, 2019 You would have to grow the GDP at a faster rate and therefore increase the tax take without increasing the tax rate. Not an easy feat. You could also try to increase the tax rate on the wealthier without causing them to just f**k off to lower tax countries. Again not an easy feat. Austerity doesn't have to be the way though. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Detournement Posted March 8, 2019 Share Posted March 8, 2019 The way to tax the rich is to tax assets rather than income. It's easy enough to f**k off to Switzerland, it's a bit more difficult to take your land with you. Even at that I doubt it's possible to the tax the rich enough to cover that kind of deficit reduction (and i'm certain the SNP won't do that anyway). What also has to be remembered is that we are currently living in austerity so anything other than spending increases is continued austerity. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
git-intae-thum Posted March 8, 2019 Share Posted March 8, 2019 57 minutes ago, Mr Heliums said: There's even an argument that lower life expectancy in Scotland (another benefit of the Union?) means that effectively Scots pension contributions subsidise those in the south; post independence we'd - other things being equal - be able to afford better pensions simply because we die sooner. That's an ugly argument though. Even mentioning Pensions is dangerous. You saw last time how rationality went out of the window and Better Together preyed on that uncertainty. Its only dangerous because both sides were at it during the last referendum debate and fudged the issue. BT profited as better the devil you know. I feel too many of our old are under the impression that the NI they paid throughout their working lives is kept in some big differentiated account somewhere, gathering interest to fund their continued retirement. The feeling is that they have paid in to rUK and want their money out. That needs fully exposed. Obviously the reality is that this has never happened and it is the current working generation who fund todays pensioners. Continuing UK govt policy and its negative effect on Scotlands age demographics are a disaster waiting to happen for this nation. That is the reality of how we are eventually going to be unable to maintain pensions. We will have spending choices when we become independent but making pensions a priority in a campaign could do much to reassure the older vote. The future independence campaign needs to be clear. Pensions will be paid post independence by the Scottish govt. No nonsense about rUK being responsible for this or that. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Donathan Posted March 8, 2019 Share Posted March 8, 2019 I reckon if we do have a second referendum in the next few years, WM will ensure the question is either "Should Scotland remain as part of the United Kingdom?" (Yes/No) or "Should Scotland remain in the United Kingdom or leave the United Kingdom?" (Remain/Leave) I don't reckon they'll make the mistake of letting the independence side have "yes" again. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Ferrino Posted March 8, 2019 Share Posted March 8, 2019 6 minutes ago, Donathan said: I reckon if we do have a second referendum in the next few years, WM will ensure the question is either "Should Scotland remain as part of the United Kingdom?" (Yes/No) or "Should Scotland remain in the United Kingdom or leave the United Kingdom?" (Remain/Leave) I don't reckon they'll make the mistake of letting the independence side have "yes" again. Should Scotland be a dependent country? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Donathan Posted March 8, 2019 Share Posted March 8, 2019 2 minutes ago, Tony Ferrino said: Should Scotland be a dependent country? I doubt there are any plans for this to be the question. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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