When will indyref2 happen?

[BawWatchin]

37 minutes ago, Gaz FFC said:

What is the opinion on the SNP playing fair to win this?

From a personal point of view I'm sickened that Better together told some whoppers in 2014 (see the vow) and that Brexit just wrote graffiti on the side of a bus to win, before we even talk about spending.

The SNP and Yes has a problem with doing things the right way I say it's May be time to buy some votes with promises where it counts.

Tell the pensioners they will receive bigger pensions in an independent Scotland.

Tell the poor we will scrap UC and pay a better benefit system.

Tell the working class about the better/fairer income tax system.

As a big hitter with all this renewable energy make it clear we can pay less for utility bills up here than our poor racist cousins down in megadebt land.

Make it clear we can all be better off whilst Better together cannot be trusted having failed to deliver on any 2014 promises and having taken us out of Europe after telling us they were the safe bet for staying in.

All these promises were made in 2014....

[Ira Gaines]

The Yes campaign should not play fair. f**k morals. If you aren't in it to win then you're utterly useless. Yes should do whatever it takes to get the job done. Prey on the fears of the idiots and anger of the idiots. Lie through the teeth and make headlines. We've seen enough to know that's what it takes. If they aren't willing to do what it takes, then what's the point?

[harry94]

2 hours ago, MixuFixit said:

Quick infographics comparing Irish wages/conditions with Scottish ones for equivalent jobs would work wonders too.

 

My equivalent in Ireland for example earns about €8000 more than I do. I want SNP to be using that kind of thing as a a way of hammering home "The UK way is not working. It can't be changed in your lifetime. Here is what you and your family could have if we do things a different way."

 

 

Comparing that too with the projected figures in 2030 for a Hard Brexit, the numbers are pretty harrowing when you see any sort of economic analysis.

[BawWatchin]

8 minutes ago, Principal Flutie said:

The Yes campaign should not play fair. f**k morals. If you aren't in it to win then you're utterly useless. Yes should do whatever it takes to get the job done. Prey on the fears of the idiots and anger of the idiots. Lie through the teeth and make headlines. We've seen enough to know that's what it takes. If they aren't willing to do what it takes, then what's the point?

What kind of lies could we possibly make up that would help us any further?

Any lies would have to be negative.

[Ira Gaines]

Just now, BawWatchin said:

What kind of lies could we possibly make up that would help us any further?

Any lies would have to be negative.

I have no idea tbh. I just know that Yes have to be as dirty as possible. The No campaign knew what it took last time and got the job done while Yes did the equivalent of shuffling their feet and watching. That's not good enough.

[BawWatchin]

4 minutes ago, Principal Flutie said:

I have no idea tbh. I just know that Yes have to be as dirty as possible. The No campaign knew what it took last time and got the job done while Yes did the equivalent of shuffling their feet and watching. That's not good enough.

YES bras and knickers? If such dirty tactics don't win the country over, nothing will imho.

[Colkitto]

When Nicola pulls the trigger and asks for Section 30 it will be interesting how both the Scottish government and the Scottish electorate react.

Whether you are for or against independence as soon as the UK government refuse to agree it becomes a democracy issue.

Will they basically say to us we disregard your mandate by the people and there is no route you can follow to enable you to become an independent State by any other means?

Not by returning more SNP MP's than any other party in Scotland via a UK election 

Not by holding an independence referendum that is not legally binding

Not by declaring UDI

Will only happen we say it will by agreeing a Section 30 order, which could be 10,20,30 years from now. But we will decide not the Scottish people

[BawWatchin]

2 minutes ago, Colkitto said:

When Nicola pulls the trigger and asks for Section 30 it will be interesting how both the Scottish government and the Scottish electorate react.

Whether you are for or against independence as soon as the UK government refuse to agree it becomes a democracy issue.

Will they basically say to us we disregard your mandate by the people and there is no route you can follow to enable you to become an independent State by any other means?

Not by returning more SNP MP's than any other party in Scotland via a UK election 

Not by holding an independence referendum that is not legally binding

Not by declaring UDI

Will only happen we say it will by agreeing a Section 30 order, which could be 10,20,30 years from now. But we will decide not the Scottish people

The UK Government can't stop UDI. That's the whole point of UDI in these situations.

[Colkitto]

Just now, BawWatchin said:

The UK Government can't stop UDI. That's the whole point of UDI in these situations.

You can declare UDI, but doesn't mean the UK will adhere to that and may claim Scotland is still part of the UK

[BawWatchin]

1 minute ago, Colkitto said:

You can declare UDI, but doesn't mean the UK will adhere to that and may claim Scotland is still part of the UK

They can do that if they wish. But the European Union would recognize it. Of that I have no doubt.

[Rodhull]

I'd be surprised if the EU would. At the very least countries like Spain would object to the UDI. They support Scotland doing it 'democratically' (ie UK approved referendum) because they know Catalonia would have constitutional issues to recreate such a vote.

[Colkitto]

6 minutes ago, Rodhull said:

I'd be surprised if the EU would. At the very least countries like Spain would object to the UDI. They support Scotland doing it 'democratically' (ie UK approved referendum) because they know Catalonia would have constitutional issues to recreate such a vote.

Spain has already said words to that effect. Saying they wouldn't object to an independent Scotland staying in the EU as long as it was a legal break from the UK

[Benjamin_Nevis]

Running a dirty campaign worked a treat for Better Together because they had a largely compliant media. Yes doesn't, and probably never will.

[Ira Gaines]

Just now, jupe1407 said:

Running a dirty campaign worked a treat for Better Together because they had a largely compliant media. Yes doesn't, and probably never will.

That helped, but they also played to the idiots. And most people are idiots. The Yes campaign tried to play a reasoned campaign and that doesn't work, and never will.

There's been a lot of promising signs on that front tbh. A lot more willingness to sling mud at both Labour and the Tories on all platforms has been welcome, and more willingness to pull cheap stunts ( the walkout being the most notable ) so I'm fairly confident there'll be a more ambitious campaign next time.

[I'm Brian]

6 hours ago, MixuFixit said:

As a Green, I think it matters little to those who are at that level of opposition to independence who is the face of the movement. Last door chapping I did we sometimes got "I like you but you're pro indy so no". A politically neutral Yes Scotland will run into that issue whatever.

I think in 2014 it was a mistake to distance the SNP from Yes Scotland, because it robbed them of effective campaign staff. I remember a lot of "where are they, what are they doing?" and "nice guys, no idea" from SNP folk last time. I think the benefit of just going f**k it and making it an SNP thing outweigh the 56 extra votes getting Malcolm Chisholm up on stage will bring.

Of course there are the folks who will vote no regardless. You could offer them all a million quid each and they still not vote for it.

There are still large numbers of votes up for grabs though. and a cross party approach in my mind is the best way forward to get those votes. It isn't about distancing themselves from the official campaign, it's about getting a message across that it is more than one party. It would kill the scenario from last time where Alex Salmond was demonised. When you heard the words "I don't like that Alex Salmond" from someone you knew there was no reason that would sway them. It will be the same the next time, just swap the name Nicola Sturgeon for Alex Salmond. And it isn't just Rapeepul types who were saying this.

Perhaps it was where I was but it the campaign had been pretty much divvied up between the SNP members and elected officials. Apart from the odd person It was an SNP campaign in all but name. And it pissed a fair few folks off. There was very little co-operation between the individual factions.

 

[BawWatchin]

22 minutes ago, MixuFixit said:

They really really wouldn't.

Edit: actually maybe some would. But it would make use like a Taiwan or a Kosovo which would be shite.

What makes you think that? How would it be anymore benifical to the EU not to recognize us as an independent state? It would be in their own interests to do so.

[NotThePars]

26 minutes ago, MixuFixit said:

 

They really really wouldn't.

 

Edit: actually maybe  or some would. But it would make use like a Taiwan or a Kosovo which would be shite.

 

Would love to be *glances at Wikipedia* the next South Ossetia or Transnistria.

[BawWatchin]

3 minutes ago, MixuFixit said:

 

I think it because of the real world examples mentioned.

In what way would Scotland fall into the category of Taiwan or Kosovo? 

[BawWatchin]

1 minute ago, MixuFixit said:

Let me flip the question - what would distinguish the Scottish case?

Resources.

[D Angelo Barksdale]

Next referendum campaign.