sparky88 Posted June 13, 2018 Share Posted June 13, 2018 3 minutes ago, Rodhull said: Not sure if this is what you're saying but are you saying someone other than the Scottish parliament should get to decide when it's appropriate to have a referendum even when it has a majority of support there. Thats's really how you think it should work? I'm not saying it should . I'm saying that whether a referendum takes place is up to the UK government legally. that's what the Edinburgh Agreement signed between Cameron and salmond was about- it granted the Scottish Government the power to hold a referendum temporarily. it doesn't compel the UK government to do anything. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welshbairn Posted June 13, 2018 Share Posted June 13, 2018 1 hour ago, Steve_Wilkos said: "We'll keep having referendums until we get the result that we want" Very low understanding of democracy in this thread. We keep holding General Elections every few years. Should we abolish them and let the last one last a generation while we drag the corpses out of Westminster? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sparky88 Posted June 13, 2018 Share Posted June 13, 2018 8 minutes ago, virginton said: In that case literally no country could have ever voted for independence in history, you absolute fucking roaster. Turns out that 'democracy' is an idea that still applies regardless of what a gubbins, unwritten constitution says though; thanks for playing anyway. wtf is this cliched pish. The UK government gave the Scottish government the power to hold a referendum temporarily. -1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sparky88 Posted June 13, 2018 Share Posted June 13, 2018 8 minutes ago, virginton said: In that case literally no country could have ever voted for independence in history, you absolute fucking roaster. Turns out that 'democracy' is an idea that still applies regardless of what a gubbins, unwritten constitution says though; thanks for playing anyway. wtf is this cliched pish. The UK government gave the Scottish government the power to hold a referendum temporarily. -1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve_Wilkos Posted June 13, 2018 Share Posted June 13, 2018 4 minutes ago, welshbairn said: We keep holding General Elections every few years. Should we abolish them and let the last one last a generation while we drag the corpses out of Westminster? Are you deliberately making stupid points? -1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welshbairn Posted June 13, 2018 Share Posted June 13, 2018 Just now, Steve_Wilkos said: Are you deliberately making stupid points? I don't think so. Why should a referendum's result bind the country for a generation, and a GE result only for a few years? People change their minds, circumstances change. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rodhull Posted June 13, 2018 Share Posted June 13, 2018 5 minutes ago, sparky88 said: I'm not saying it should . I'm saying that whether a referendum takes place is up to the UK government legally. that's what the Edinburgh Agreement signed between Cameron and salmond was about- it granted the Scottish Government the power to hold a referendum temporarily. it doesn't compel the UK government to do anything. Nobody is debating that the UK parliament has to give the go ahead, but is it democracy for the UK parliament to refuse another one if the Scottish parliament votes for it. Potentially more than once? The Edinburgh agreement did nothing to state that no further referendums could be held in the long or short term afterwards so it would appear to entirely be on the whims of the Westminster government. Is that democratic? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sparky88 Posted June 13, 2018 Share Posted June 13, 2018 5 minutes ago, Rodhull said: Nobody is debating that the UK parliament has to give the go ahead, but is it democracy for the UK parliament to refuse another one if the Scottish parliament votes for it. Potentially more than once? The Edinburgh agreement did nothing to state that no further referendums could be held in the long or short term afterwards so it would appear to entirely be on the whims of the Westminster government. Is that democratic? is it democracy to put something in a manifesto that they don't have the legal ability to carry out? The SNP wouldn't help the Tories fulfil their manifesto so i dont think it should be taken as a given that the Tories would help the SNP with theirs. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DublinMagyar Posted June 13, 2018 Share Posted June 13, 2018 is it democracy to put something in a manifesto that they don't have the legal ability to carry out? The SNP wouldn't help the Tories fulfil their manifesto so i dont think it should be taken as a given that the Tories would help the SNP with theirs. Scottish parliament voted to ask for a referendum, not the SNP 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rodhull Posted June 13, 2018 Share Posted June 13, 2018 13 minutes ago, sparky88 said: is it democracy to put something in a manifesto that they don't have the legal ability to carry out? The SNP wouldn't help the Tories fulfil their manifesto so i dont think it should be taken as a given that the Tories would help the SNP with theirs. They have as much legal right now as they did before. Westminster only gave it the go ahead last time as they didn't believe it would be close and it would embarrass the SNP. What you're talking about is democracy being granted dependant of the level of spite of whoever in charge of westminster. That to me is not democratic. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sparky88 Posted June 13, 2018 Share Posted June 13, 2018 Just now, Rodhull said: They have as much legal right now as they did before. Westminster only gave it the go ahead last time as they didn't believe it would be close and it would embarrass the SNP. What you're talking about is democracy being granted dependant of the level of spite of whoever in charge of westminster. That to me is not democratic. That's correct, much the same way as the SNP will ignore their own manifesto if they look at the polls and judge they haven't got a snowball's chance in hell of winning a referendum I'd agree that if it is in the manifesto of the leading party and they have enough support in parliament, then they have the moral right to hold a referendum, if not a legal one. A solution would be for the UK government to devolve the refendum process completely to the Scottish Parliament, though I don't think there would have been a second referendum held by now even if that was the case. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vikingTON Posted June 13, 2018 Share Posted June 13, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, sparky88 said: wtf is this cliched pish. The UK government gave the Scottish government the power to hold a referendum temporarily. Erm no, this isn't the 1750s champ. Nations have a right to peaceful self-determination; the UK Government was in fact forced to bend to the will of the Scottish people. And will have to do so again unless it wants to get 'Rajoyed' out of power. The Scottish claim to self-determination has already been clearly established as follows: Quote We... do hereby acknowledge the sovereign right of the Scottish people to determine the form of Government best suited to their needs, and do hereby declare and pledge that in all our actions and deliberations their interests shall be paramount. Who were the cliche-riddled nationalists that were responsible for that claim? Err, that would be Labour and Lib Dem politicians, s well as the 58 out of 72 Scottish MPs, 59 out of 65 Scottish councils and local authorities as well as a host of church bodies, trade unions and other institutions of Scottish civil society who signed the Scottish 'Claim of Right' in 1989: the above quote being the opening and most significant line of that document. Nothing has changed: the sovereign right of the Scottish people trumped Westminster's authority then; it still does so now. Thanks for playing anyway chump. Edited June 13, 2018 by vikingTON 9 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Heliums Posted June 13, 2018 Share Posted June 13, 2018 30 minutes ago, sparky88 said: That's correct, much the same way as the SNP will ignore their own manifesto if they look at the polls and judge they haven't got a snowball's chance in hell of winning a referendum Just to be clear – the SNP manifesto didn't commit them to holding an independence referendum, so they really wouldn't ignore anything. Their manifesto merely said that a vote for the SNP would reinforce the Scottish Parliament’s right to decide when an independence referendum should happen. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank Grimes Posted June 13, 2018 Share Posted June 13, 2018 13 minutes ago, Mr Heliums said: Just to be clear – the SNP manifesto didn't commit them to holding an independence referendum, so they really wouldn't ignore anything. Their manifesto merely said that a vote for the SNP would reinforce the Scottish Parliament’s right to decide when an independence referendum should happen. Didn’t it contain something regarding material change in relation to a second referendum? I.E. a hard cunting Brexit that we didn’t vote for 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Lambies Doos Posted June 13, 2018 Share Posted June 13, 2018 The yoons on this thread ???? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Heliums Posted June 13, 2018 Share Posted June 13, 2018 (edited) 33 minutes ago, Frank Grimes said: Didn’t it contain something regarding material change in relation to a second referendum? I.E. a hard cunting Brexit that we didn’t vote for Yeah I was talking about the last Westminster manifesto. The 2016 Holyrood manifesto said that the Scottish Parliament should have the right to hold another referendum 'if there is clear and sustained evidence that independence has become the preferred option of a majority of the Scottish people – or if there is a significant and material change in the circumstances that prevailed in 2014, such as Scotland being taken out of the EU against our will.' So even then, not a commitment to hold one, merely a condition that has clearly been fulfilled. Edited June 13, 2018 by Mr Heliums 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crùbag Posted June 13, 2018 Share Posted June 13, 2018 Am starting to think the sooner we have it, the better. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antlion Posted June 13, 2018 Share Posted June 13, 2018 (edited) Is there a change in the national mood afoot...? Edited June 13, 2018 by Antlion 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Lambies Doos Posted June 13, 2018 Share Posted June 13, 2018 Is there a change in the national mood afoot...? Unfortunately nobody outwith our politics society really cares 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peppino Impastato Posted June 13, 2018 Share Posted June 13, 2018 10 hours ago, Bairnardo said: If I had the time, I would genuinely go out and campaign now for a Yes vote. Have said loads of times I didnt vote last time out. Short reasoning being I wasnt convinced by Yes but no way was I giving No my vote. This time however, I dont need to listen to or read the case for Yes. It is simply all about emptying ourselves from this clusterfuck May is presiding over. Truly toxic stuff and I will happily take my chances as little Scotland rather than be a part of Little Britain. Probably reaching America levels of utter mentalness. f**k the UK. Actually champ not voting was giving no your vote. Good job Einstein x 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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