Rednyella Posted June 11, 2015 Share Posted June 11, 2015 http://www.uefa.com/memberassociations/uefarankings/country/ I was just wondering folks thoughts on this list and our terrible position below countries like Cyprus, Belarus and Romania. I've been to all three of these countries and there is no way our football should be less successful. Surely we should be looking at climbing this list to be more in the 10-15 range? It annoys me that in countries like ours the champions of the country have to qualify for the Champions league but yet 3rd place Arsenal waltz into the group stages. It's not a champions league! Also how does this coefficient our standing for tournament qualification? Thoughts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HibeeJibee Posted June 11, 2015 Share Posted June 11, 2015 A different coefficient (one for national teams) is used for Euro qualification, plus the FIFA World Ranking is used for WC qualification... This ranking is only relevant in terms of how many CL/EL slots we get and entering at what point, and it contributes to a limited degree to club coefficients and thus to "seeding". We are below where we should be aiming to be - but coefficients are cyclical for countries like us... you fall down low, fewer clubs enter and they enter earlier, they win more games and progress more rounds, in time this lifts the coefficient up, the higher it goes the more clubs enter and the later in they go, eventually you overextend yourself and lose too many ties against tough opposition and so fall back. Expecting 10th-15th is very optimistic, though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PudgieTheSheep Posted June 11, 2015 Share Posted June 11, 2015 Edit: Made a total balls of reading the table. Fingers crossed us Caley and St Johnstone can get through via a few win/win or win/draw ties to boost the table a wee bitty. We'd need to be in the top 15 for the 2nd CL place and I can't see that being a common occurrence I'm afraid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hillonearth Posted June 11, 2015 Share Posted June 11, 2015 I don’t reckon it would make much difference if Scottish teams did better under the current coefficient rules – if representatives from here or some of the other smaller countries threatened the status quo, the rules would only be changed again so that the “correct” sides would be in the mix at the business end. Like it or not, Scottish sides aren’t a big draw for the sponsors or TV companies who at the end of the day call the shots. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sergie's no1 fan Posted June 11, 2015 Share Posted June 11, 2015 I blame the Oldco. Only 2 wins in their previous 29 European games according to Wikipedia. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PudgieTheSheep Posted June 11, 2015 Share Posted June 11, 2015 I don’t reckon it would make much difference if Scottish teams did better under the current coefficient rules – if representatives from here or some of the other smaller countries threatened the status quo, the rules would only be changed again so that the “correct” sides would be in the mix at the business end. Like it or not, Scottish sides aren’t a big draw for the sponsors or TV companies who at the end of the day call the shots. You can see that by the German, English and Spanish teams having more than our total points in one season. Christ, they go in at the group stages and get a "bonus" on their coefficient points there and then. Seedings have really killed cup competitions. Just chuck everyone in a hat and get on with it FFS! EDIT: Euro football could be fixed by having the two competitions of 128 teams all going into a funcy pyock and picking them out home and away. 2 matches and then 32 teams in the group stages. Run it like the Champions league from there and that's that sorted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lionel hutz Posted June 11, 2015 Share Posted June 11, 2015 You can see that by the German, English and Spanish teams having more than our total points in one season. Christ, they go in at the group stages and get a "bonus" on their coefficient points there and then. Seedings have really killed cup competitions. Just chuck everyone in a hat and get on with it FFS! EDIT: Euro football could be fixed by having the two competitions of 128 teams all going into a funcy pyock and picking them out home and away. 2 matches and then 32 teams in the group stages. Run it like the Champions league from there and that's that sorted. Round 1 Draw in your tournament: Celtic (SCO) vs Copenhagen (DEN) Manchester City (ENG) vs Real Madrid (ESP) Bayern Munchen (DEU) vs Shamrock Rovers (IRE) Lincoln Red Imps (GIB) vs CE Principat (AND) Would love to see it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PudgieTheSheep Posted June 12, 2015 Share Posted June 12, 2015 Round 1 Draw in your tournament: Celtic (SCO) vs Copenhagen (DEN) Manchester City (ENG) vs Real Madrid (ESP) Bayern Munchen (DEU) vs Shamrock Rovers (IRE) Lincoln Red Imps (GIB) vs CE Principat (AND) Would love to see it. Is that not what cup competitions should throw up though? A game against one of Europe's elite could elevate some of the lower ranked teams to a much higher level with the revenue it would bring in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hillonearth Posted June 12, 2015 Share Posted June 12, 2015 Round 1 Draw in your tournament: Celtic (SCO) vs Copenhagen (DEN) Manchester City (ENG) vs Real Madrid (ESP) Bayern Munchen (DEU) vs Shamrock Rovers (IRE) Lincoln Red Imps (GIB) vs CE Principat (AND) Would love to see it. It’s called the luck of the draw, and would potentially cause the odd upset with a lower-ranked side getting a result now and then – the prospect of two bigger teams meeting each other early doors would also probably create a higher level of interest than their current predictable meeting in the last 16 would at the moment. The current CL setup is so obviously stage-managed and sterile that it’s causing a lot of people to lose interest in it. At the moment, they’d be as well abandoning any pretence and just giving the usual suspects a bye to the quarter finals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tarapoa Posted June 12, 2015 Share Posted June 12, 2015 I started a thread on this matter in the Scots Clubs in Europe forum, but fully agree it's a concern. The performances each season get more and more lamentable. Celtic getting through Europa groups they were lucky to be in, and Aberdeen/St Johnstone wins vs Groningen/Luzern did us some good last season - but the most we'll shift up is maybe 3 places. We were a top ten nation in 2009, now we're not even top twenty. A lot of the really excrutiating results came from cup runners-up, so hopefully them no longer getting entry will ensure at least the best teams are in there - but due to the number of qualifying rounds it's going to be a long shot expecting anyone other than Celtic to be in the Europa groups, and only then because they'll have been papped out of the CL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EdTheDuck Posted June 12, 2015 Share Posted June 12, 2015 The Champions League exists in its current format to head off the big clubs setting up a European League of their own and to maximize TV income. Frankly, without the guarantee of the major clubs and their TV markets would see the income absolutely plummet. Therefore the notion of an all-in *cup* competition will remain in the realm of romantic fiction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PudgieTheSheep Posted June 12, 2015 Share Posted June 12, 2015 It’s called the luck of the draw, and would potentially cause the odd upset with a lower-ranked side getting a result now and then – the prospect of two bigger teams meeting each other early doors would also probably create a higher level of interest than their current predictable meeting in the last 16 would at the moment. The current CL setup is so obviously stage-managed and sterile that it’s causing a lot of people to lose interest in it. At the moment, they’d be as well abandoning any pretence and just giving the usual suspects a bye to the quarter finals. 6 Apps England Arsenal Germany Bayern Munich Spain Barcelona Spain Real Madrid 5 Apps England Chelsea Italy Milan 4Apps England Manchester United Germany Schalke 04 3 Apps France Lyon France Paris Saint-Germain Germany Bayer Leverkusen Germany Borussia Dortmund Italy Internazionale Portugal Porto Ukraine Shakhtar Donetsk 2 Apps England Manchester City France Marseille Greece Olympiacos Italy Juventus Russia CSKA Moscow Russia Zenit Saint Petersburg Spain Atlético Madrid Spain Valencia Switzerland Basel Turkey Galatasaray 1 App Cyprus APOEL Denmark Copenhagen England Tottenham Hotspur France Bordeaux France Monaco Germany Stuttgart Italy Fiorentina Italy Napoli Italy Roma Portugal Benfica Scotland Celtic Spain Málaga Spain Sevilla That's all of the teams in the last 16 over the past 6 years. So out of the 96 spaces, there's been a total of 37 different teams in the last 16. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hillonearth Posted June 12, 2015 Share Posted June 12, 2015 6 Apps England Arsenal Germany Bayern Munich Spain Barcelona Spain Real Madrid 5 Apps England Chelsea Italy Milan 4Apps England Manchester United Germany Schalke 04 3 Apps France Lyon France Paris Saint-Germain Germany Bayer Leverkusen Germany Borussia Dortmund Italy Internazionale Portugal Porto Ukraine Shakhtar Donetsk 2 Apps England Manchester City France Marseille Greece Olympiacos Italy Juventus Russia CSKA Moscow Russia Zenit Saint Petersburg Spain Atlético Madrid Spain Valencia Switzerland Basel Turkey Galatasaray 1 App Cyprus APOEL Denmark Copenhagen England Tottenham Hotspur France Bordeaux France Monaco Germany Stuttgart Italy Fiorentina Italy Napoli Italy Roma Portugal Benfica Scotland Celtic Spain Málaga Spain Sevilla That's all of the teams in the last 16 over the past 6 years. So out of the 96 spaces, there's been a total of 37 different teams in the last 16. But a paltry 11 of those teams with only 18 appearances between them come from outside the five "big" leagues of Europe, with the likes of Spurs who haven't won their domestic league since 1961 being one of the chosen few. Wonder how many of the interlopers to the party made it to the quarter finals and beyond? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PudgieTheSheep Posted June 15, 2015 Share Posted June 15, 2015 But a paltry 11 of those teams with only 18 appearances between them come from outside the five "big" leagues of Europe, with the likes of Spurs who haven't won their domestic league since 1961 being one of the chosen few. Wonder how many of the interlopers to the party made it to the quarter finals and beyond? Quarter final numbers for the last 6 years as was the above table 6 Apps Spain Barcelona 5Apps Germany Bayern Munich Spain Real Madrid 3 Apps England Chelsea England Manchester United France Paris Saint-Germain 2 Apps Germany Borussia Dortmund Italy Internazionale Italy Juventus Spain Atlético Madrid 1 App Cyprus APOEL England Arsenal England Tottenham Hotspur France Bordeaux France Lyon France Marseille France Monaco Germany Schalke 04 Italy Milan Portugal Benfica Portugal Porto Russia CSKA Moscow Spain Málaga Turkey Galatasaray Ukraine Shakhtar Donetsk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
craigkillie Posted June 15, 2015 Share Posted June 15, 2015 Bit of a kick in the teeth for "it's the same teams every year" crowd. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
honestly united Posted June 15, 2015 Share Posted June 15, 2015 Quarter final numbers for the last 6 years as was the above table 6 Apps Spain Barcelona 5Apps Germany Bayern Munich Spain Real Madrid 3 Apps England Chelsea England Manchester United France Paris Saint-Germain 2 Apps Germany Borussia Dortmund Italy Internazionale Italy Juventus Spain Atlético Madrid 1 App Cyprus APOEL England Arsenal England Tottenham Hotspur France Bordeaux France Lyon France Marseille France Monaco Germany Schalke 04 Italy Milan Portugal Benfica Portugal Porto Russia CSKA Moscow Spain Málaga Turkey Galatasaray Ukraine Shakhtar Donetsk or 15 teams account for just under 2/3 (63 of the 96) places in the last 16 over the last 6 years and 13 of those are from the big 5 leagues, and 6 teams from the big leagues account for more than half the quarterfinal places 22 teams account for just over 1/3 (33 of 96) places, and 19 teams account for less than half of the quarters For the last 16, 3 teams a year on average make it from the smaller leagues, and one team a year makes it to the quarters, suppose it depends on your point of view on whether that is a good thing or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShawfieldAggro Posted June 15, 2015 Share Posted June 15, 2015 I've long been of the opinion that the current entry status is flawed, and in no way represents clubs in their natural positions due to two/three year spells (looking at Napoli, Spurs, etc) of not being as average as they normally are. An exception is made for the clubs with genuine success behind them, but i think the time has come for drastic alterations. It's boring as f**k. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BFTD Posted June 16, 2015 Share Posted June 16, 2015 Pointless to even discuss whether or not the Champions League is in any way a 'fair' tournament - it was invented as a way of keeping the big clubs from the major nations around Europe constantly involved in big-money games, that's all. Any pretence of it being an actual competition between champions is long by the wayside. It's not a event for us, or many other countries like us, and nobody should be judging our club sides with regard to it. Europe's a fun little jaunt that doesn't even bring in much money for most of our sides and, sadly, shouldn't be taken seriously. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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