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The Greenock Morton Thread - It's Better Than Yours

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Montrose will be favourites and we'd have had more reason to be confident of a win if we were up against a Falkirk side who've fallen to pieces. Even if we somehow scrape past Montrose with one goal in 180/210 minutes being the best we can hope for, I don’t see any way this team gets through another two legged tie after that regardless. It looks more like a question of who relegates us rather than whether we get relegated or not.

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10 hours ago, TheScarf said:

You’re playing Montrose lads.

"Playing" is not the word I'd use, but the consequences of this now being the fixture are, of course, hilarious.

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As long as we're spending every last minute of our training sessions practising penalties, there's no reason why we can't survive. Undoubtedly very difficult games, but we have 6 draws and a win in our 7 cup ties this season (5 shootouts). 1 League Two club, 2 League One clubs, 2 Championship clubs, 2 Premiership clubs - tight matches, no matter the opponent. 

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8 hours ago, The Ghost of B A R P said:

The fact that you're now asking questions you already know the answer to suggests you're digging in way too hard here... The £2.5M, as you know very well, wasn't 'revenue', it was chocolate money from Golden Casket, which allowed Doogie to change his mind whenever he liked (and regardless of which division we were in, btw). And there were no investments made in the future of the club, either, for more or less the same reasons; but again, you know that.

You clearly don't understand how a rhetorical question works. Which is why you've somehow contrived to 'answer' it incorrectly anyway. 

Douglas Rae did not set out to spend £2.5 million more than the club took in - that was not the plan (although he also did nothing to stop his daft ways from making the club leak money like a sieve). The reason why we have that debt is in part because 'Championship prize money' and other revenue is absolutely meaningless for balancing the books - because you also have to assemble a Championship squad on (unaffordable) Championship wages to maintain access to it. The revenue therefore goes straight out of the door again and does absolutely nothing to develop the club. 

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Neither MCT nor anybody else who runs Morton in the foreseeable future will be able to do the same. The best way of ensuring that we don't accumulate any future debt, even short-term, is to maximise revenue; and of course to spend what we have as efficiently as possible (which more or less comes down to better judgement when signing players).

No, because as you have just confirmed there is a sustainable budget for playing in a lower tier as well. 

The greatest threat of accumulating debt comes from the same series of disastrous short-term decisions made to keep us in the second tier nearly every year since 2007, instead of focusing on getting the long-term structure right for sustainable growth of our own revenue that is not dependent on league performance. That requires capital investment rather than revenue. 

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MCT have very sensibly said there are budgets in place for both Championship and L1; but they've also answered the rhetorical question I posed earlier by saying, very clearly, that they hope it's the Championship. That isn't coming from the same place as a supporter's general desire to be in as high a league as possible (which is what your counter-intuitive argument is presumably aimed at); it's coming from a clear understanding of the financial stakes.

It absolutely is coming from a supporter's point of view because that's what they are. I don't blame them for this and don't expect them to publicly go out and say 'lads, down tools on Saturday'. 

But Douglas Rae was also a fan and we have seen how myopic obsessions with our rightful league status/more crumbs from the table please have worked out for us over the past twenty years. The priority has to be on off the park development of the club for the first time this fucking century. 

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As Rudolph says, the discussion is largely immaterial in any case, because both the supporters and MCT will have to deal with whatever this group of players delivers. It's one thing to be realistic about us possibly or probably going down; but it's another thing altogether to wish for it.

If it was immaterial to discuss the future of the club then we wouldn't have fan ownership of it right now. 

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6 minutes ago, SpoonTon said:

As long as we're spending every last minute of our training sessions practising penalties, there's no reason why we can't survive. Undoubtedly very difficult games, but we have 6 draws and a win in our 7 cup ties this season (5 shootouts). 1 League Two club, 2 League One clubs, 2 Championship clubs, 2 Premiership clubs - tight matches, no matter the opponent. 

I agree, unless there's a polished Championship club in waiting then our play-offs are likely to go all the way to extra time and penalties. 

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Have to say, not hopeful of getting through. Hopefully we can squeeze past Arbroath... but just don't see where the goals are coming from to get through 2 rounds of 2 leg ties. 

At least we have been reasonably robust at the back... perhaps the players and coaching staff will see that now is the time to roll the dice and take a few chances going forward. 

Not seen a lot of Muirhead in the games I've managed to watch, but he has to be a better option than Orsi. Amazed he didn't get 30 mins at Arbroath. 

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1 hour ago, Piehutt said:

Have to say, not hopeful of getting through. Hopefully we can squeeze past Arbroath... but just don't see where the goals are coming from to get through 2 rounds of 2 leg ties. 

At least we have been reasonably robust at the back... perhaps the players and coaching staff will see that now is the time to roll the dice and take a few chances going forward. 

Not seen a lot of Muirhead in the games I've managed to watch, but he has to be a better option than Orsi. Amazed he didn't get 30 mins at Arbroath. 

You don't see a lot of Muirhead, even when he's on the pitch. 

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54 minutes ago, virginton said:

You clearly don't understand how a rhetorical question works. Which is why you've somehow contrived to 'answer' it incorrectly anyway. 

Douglas Rae did not set out to spend £2.5 million more than the club took in - that was not the plan (although he also did nothing to stop his daft ways from making the club leak money like a sieve). The reason why we have that debt is in part because 'Championship prize money' and other revenue is absolutely meaningless for balancing the books - because you also have to assemble a Championship squad on (unaffordable) Championship wages to maintain access to it. The revenue therefore goes straight out of the door again and does absolutely nothing to develop the club. 

No, because as you have just confirmed there is a sustainable budget for playing in a lower tier as well. 

The greatest threat of accumulating debt comes from the same series of disastrous short-term decisions made to keep us in the second tier nearly every year since 2007, instead of focusing on getting the long-term structure right for sustainable growth of our own revenue that is not dependent on league performance. That requires capital investment rather than revenue. 

It absolutely is coming from a supporter's point of view because that's what they are. I don't blame them for this and don't expect them to publicly go out and say 'lads, down tools on Saturday'. 

But Douglas Rae was also a fan and we have seen how myopic obsessions with our rightful league status/more crumbs from the table please have worked out for us over the past twenty years. The priority has to be on off the park development of the club for the first time this fucking century. 

If it was immaterial to discuss the future of the club then we wouldn't have fan ownership of it right now. 

That horse you're desperately clinging to must have died of drowning, because you're flogging it with one hand and desperately clutching at straws with the other. Just reread the post above and for once recognise it for the nonsense that it is - the first part is history and not relevant to the current discussion;  MCT would be in dereliction of their duty if they did NOT have a contingency plan for relegation;  and your last paragraph is a statement of the bleedin' obvious that does nothing to advance your position. 

Time to accept the logic that if we go down we lose a lot of the interest and goodwill (and potential new MCT  contributors) that the takeover has generated, we lose a significant number of season ticket money and pay-at-the-gate money, we face reduced league payments and we would face several  clubs that would make promotion if anything more difficult than survival in the Championship.  The club would be as dead in the water as it has been this season and it would be very difficult to create any significant forward momentum.

It's simple fact-based analysis. Accept that and go find another pointless argument to bore us with. 

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Why would MCT lose goodwill for a relegation that took place under the Raes' ownership? Be extremely specific.

You have got this entirely wrong. The threat to the new ownership's standing comes from another hopeless campaign next season at this level, most likely under Gus McPherson. That's the opposite of the clean break with the past that is needed to convince doubters that this is not just going to be different clowns in club ties making the same short-sighted mistakes. 

Without that break then there will not be sustained buy-in and so the premise of fan ownership falls apart, whether we're paying more money to different jobbers on the park or not. 

There is also absolutely zero evidence to show that GMFC loses season ticket holders when playing in a lower league, so rather than 'facts' that is what is known as 'lies'. The only proven instrument to reduce home season ticket numbers is in fact 'circling the drain of a division for years', which is your grand plan for the future. 

Edited by vikingTON

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3 hours ago, virginton said:

You clearly don't understand how a rhetorical question works. Which is why you've somehow contrived to 'answer' it incorrectly anyway. 

Douglas Rae did not set out to spend £2.5 million more than the club took in - that was not the plan (although he also did nothing to stop his daft ways from making the club leak money like a sieve). The reason why we have that debt is in part because 'Championship prize money' and other revenue is absolutely meaningless for balancing the books - because you also have to assemble a Championship squad on (unaffordable) Championship wages to maintain access to it. The revenue therefore goes straight out of the door again and does absolutely nothing to develop the club. 

Come again?

I literally began by pointing out that you were 'asking' a question you (and every other Morton supporter) already know the answer to... so not just a rhetorical question, but an utterly pointless one...

And where did I say that Doogie 'set out' to piss the money away? He clearly didn't, but that's what happened. You then say that 'his daft ways' caused the club to 'leak money like a sieve'... but in the same breath that the reason we have the debt is the inadequacy of Championship prize money... Fuxake, which is it? Correct: it's the first one.

And if championship prize-money and other revenue is inadequate, where does that leave League One?

Our main sources of revenue -- does this really need to be said? -- are not 'meaningless for balancing the books'. The level of those main sources of revenue is what gives you half a chance of running sustainably, they're the core around which everything else is built. If your argument is that not enough has been built around them, I agree; but you don't need to deny the fundamentals in order to make that point.

3 hours ago, virginton said:

No, because as you have just confirmed there is a sustainable budget for playing in a lower tier as well. 

The greatest threat of accumulating debt comes from the same series of disastrous short-term decisions made to keep us in the second tier nearly every year since 2007, instead of focusing on getting the long-term structure right for sustainable growth of our own revenue that is not dependent on league performance. That requires capital investment rather than revenue. 

Of course a new ownership group, who don't know which division we'll be in, have produced budgets -- presumably sustainable -- for both scenarios... It's almost as if they might have some understanding of what's involved in running a football club.

The next bit is just a straight logical fallacy: 'disastrous short-term decisions' are, eh, disastrous, regardless of whether they're made to keep us in the second tier, get us out of the third tier, fly us to the moon...

The next bit makes no sense whatsoever: capital investment rather than revenue? What does that even mean?

I've got news for you (it's not really news, it's been said about a dozen times): our revenue will always be dependent, to quite a large extent, on 'league performance'... the better your 'league performance', the more prize-money you get... and the more people are likely to want to come and watch... and maybe even continue to support MCT.

This is really basic stuff.

3 hours ago, virginton said:

It absolutely is coming from a supporter's point of view because that's what they are. I don't blame them for this and don't expect them to publicly go out and say 'lads, down tools on Saturday'. 

But Douglas Rae was also a fan and we have seen how myopic obsessions with our rightful league status/more crumbs from the table please have worked out for us over the past twenty years. The priority has to be on off the park development of the club for the first time this fucking century. 

So you're arguing that MCT's perspective is more informed by being 'fans'... than by being the people about to take on fiscal and legal responsibility for the club?

I'm sorry, but that is just mental. You're tying yourself in all sorts of knots here. You're actually still thinking as if Doogie is still around; MCT are not Douglas Rae and there is no prospect of them behaving in anything like the way he did. They might make bad decisions, sure; but they can't and won't be the same type of bad decision, because they don't have a tax-beneficial safety valve of 200- 300k per year to facilitate it.

[And I agree, btw, that off-field development has to be a much greater priority than it has been, because even 'Championship prize-money' and MCT contributions won't be enough to bring success... see above]

3 hours ago, virginton said:

If it was immaterial to discuss the future of the club then we wouldn't have fan ownership of it right now. 

You know exactly what's being said here. Immaterial in the sense that your preference, my preference, MCT's preference won't have any bearing on what happens and we'll all have to deal with whichever scenario plays out.

You're trying to find justification for wanting us relegated. Time to stop digging.

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As a number of posters have said, there's no real basis for optimism going into the play-offs... but there's no real reason for us to be so pessimistic, either.

It's Montrose and Cove or Airdrie: we know we're not very good, but do we really think they are?

I'd have us marginal favourites against Montrose over two legs, even money if we get through to the final.

It's a toss-up and we just have to hope that two or three of our mob can find big performances when it matters. 

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Prices confirmed at £12 for the Montrose streams, with season ticket holders getting the home leg at no additional cost.

My favourite thing though is when I get to the bottom of the article and the website has "you may also like... That the car park was free to use one day back in 2017" 

Screenshot_20210505-135040.thumb.jpg.7cbb7d016db9277f23ac7b4125c0bb3e.jpg

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12 minutes ago, virginton said:

Why would MCT lose goodwill for a relegation that took place under the Raes' ownership? Be extremely specific.

You have got this entirely wrong. The threat to the new ownership's standing comes from another hopeless campaign next season at this level, most likely under Gus McPherson. That's the opposite of the clean break with the past that is needed to convince doubters that this is not just going to be different clowns in club ties making the same short-sighted mistakes. 

Without that break then there will not be sustained buy-in and so the premise of fan ownership falls apart, whether we're paying more money to different jobbers on the park or not. 

There is also absolutely zero evidence to show that GMFC loses season ticket holders when playing in a lower league, so rather than 'facts' that is what is known as 'lies'. The only proven instrument to reduce home season ticket numbers is in fact 'circling the drain of a division for years', which is your grand plan for the future. 

*sigh*......      yep, like a yappy wee dug with a bone. 

Why would MCT lose goodwill? Why would Morton lose season ticket holders? Why would relegation be financially calamitous?  Here we go:

First, nobody likes failure. All you have to do is read the recent posts on the threads on here from the likes of us, Ayr, Arbroath and, till a few months back, Queen of the South.  I haven't looked, but I bet the Falkirk thread ain't a barrel of laughs right now either, and those clubs' own messageboards would've been full of doom and gloom too., just like ours is. Assuming that those who post on these threads and boards are among the more dedicated supporters, it's surprising to note the level of apathy, disinterest and, often, downright dislike  for their clubs and their performances.  That level of disenchantment will also affect the less fervent supporters, reducing their feeling for the club and cutting down the number of games they go to, season tickets they buy, club merchandise they buy, and it will take a lot to get those fans to come back. A few seasons in a lower division won't do it. 

Now take a look at the Ayr and Arbroath threads since around 9.30pm last Friday. Sweetness and light, relaxed, optimistic, love for their clubs - because they stayed in this division. Same for QoS fans since January time. Get relegated, you lose all that. Look at this thread as being a good example - doom, gloom, apathy and pointless speculation like this topic. No positivity at all, except for the prospect of new ownership. 

Second. We are about to enter that new ownership. MCT have obviously done a power of work to get us to this point and deserve the goodwill and positivity that has been generated. In any normal year that goodwill would continue even if we go down now, because as we all know it was the Raes who refused to back the club for one more season, it was their parsimony and complacency that has brought us to this. MCT are the white knights hopefully bringing in a new dawn. Get relegated and a lot of that feeling will evaporate; it certainly won't lead to the uplift in MCT membership, subscriptions, season ticket sales and attendances that MCT, and all of us, hope for. In this disaffected and Covid influenced word relegation will certainly see season ticket numbers and overall attendances drop. Conversely, stay in the Championship and it'll all feel a lot better, the old order having been left behind and the new adventure just beginning. 

 

Third. You are convinced that if we stay up this season NEXT season will inevitably be a war of attrition that inevitably will end with relegation next May, leading to disenchantment and, to quote you, "there will not be sustained buy-in and so the premise of fan ownership falls apart". I don't share that pessimism about relegation next year, and after a year away from live football I think that relegation THIS season would simply bring forward your projected effect to the present day albeit, I feel, to a lesser degree than you predict.

Fourth. You totally ignore the effect that Covid and enforced absence of fans from games has had. This is NOT a normal year; it couldn't be much further from it. I did a quick email survey of around 20 pals who support several different clubs and only 4 said they felt the same enthusiasm for going to games as they felt 15 months ago.  5 season ticket holders said they wouldn't be renewing it next year and 11 folk said they hadn't missed going to ges nearly as much as they'd expected and would be more choosy about what games they went to in future.  4 said they wouldn't be going back except for the occasional "big" game. Covid has had such an effect that if we lose fans this season - ie by going down - we will have a hell of a job getting them back. A lot of people have found other things to do that are cheaper and/or more enjoyable than going to the fitba'. 

We will do better going forward by remaining in this division. FACT, like it or not. 

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It's going to be fun when MCT have to decide who's running what between themselves!  Fan ownership is not a guaranteed stairway to success.

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3 hours ago, The Ghost of B A R P said:

Come again?

I literally began by pointing out that you were 'asking' a question you (and every other Morton supporter) already know the answer to... so not just a rhetorical question, but an utterly pointless one...

And where did I say that Doogie 'set out' to piss the money away? He clearly didn't, but that's what happened. You then say that 'his daft ways' caused the club to 'leak money like a sieve'... but in the same breath that the reason we have the debt is the inadequacy of Championship prize money... Fuxake, which is it? Correct: it's the first one.

And if championship prize-money and other revenue is inadequate, where does that leave League One?

Erm no, I said it was irrelevant not inadequate, which it clearly is. We have been in the second tier for all but one season since 2007 and have posted one modest profit and an enormous stack of losses. 

The Championship prize money could be £1 million a year and this would not change, so long as there are nine other teams willing to spend that £1 million and more to stay in the league or win promotion. It only inflates the first team budget required to compete. 

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Our main sources of revenue -- does this really need to be said? -- are not 'meaningless for balancing the books'. The level of those main sources of revenue is what gives you half a chance of running sustainably, they're the core around which everything else is built. If your argument is that not enough has been built around them, I agree; but you don't need to deny the fundamentals in order to make that point.

Incorrect. Sustainability is based simply on spending less than you take in on a regular basis. It is irrelevant to your revenue, when the logic of competitive sport compels you to also increase costs - first team wages - to maintain access to it.

Which is why we are no closer to sustainability today than we were in May 2007. 

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The next bit is just a straight logical fallacy: 'disastrous short-term decisions' are, eh, disastrous, regardless of whether they're made to keep us in the second tier, get us out of the third tier, fly us to the moon...

Why would we reappoint Gus McPherson as manager in the event of relegation? The only plausible scenario for making this short-sighted decision involves scraping survival in the play-offs and hoping to scrape 8th next season. Nothing about the club's outlook will change and so we'll make the same mistakes as we've done before.

We'll probably be on manager 18 of the century by Christmas as a result.

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The next bit makes no sense whatsoever: capital investment rather than revenue? What does that even mean?

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I've got news for you (it's not really news, it's been said about a dozen times): our revenue will always be dependent, to quite a large extent, on 'league performance'... the better your 'league performance', the more prize-money you get... and the more people are likely to want to come and watch... and maybe even continue to support MCT.

This is really basic stuff.

 

Capital investment is what is needed to create a more sustainable football club with revenue from off the park as well. Revenue from prize money comes in one door and goes out the other, and is highly contingent on league performances anyway. 

Your depiction of 'better league performances' is in reality 'mebbe shitfest 8th in the second tier instead of 9th'. Nobody is buying into that. 

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So you're arguing that MCT's perspective is more informed by being 'fans'... than by being the people about to take on fiscal and legal responsibility for the club?

I'm sorry, but that is just mental. You're tying yourself in all sorts of knots here. You're actually still thinking as if Doogie is still around; MCT are not Douglas Rae and there is no prospect of them behaving in anything like the way he did. They might make bad decisions, sure; but they can't and won't be the same type of bad decision, because they don't have a tax-beneficial safety valve of 200- 300k per year to facilitate it.

 

They'll make the same foolish short-term decisions that have gotten us nowhere in 20 years, if they continue to view Championship status as what matters most. Right now, that is not true. 

Edited by vikingTON

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1 hour ago, Rudolph Hucker said:

First, nobody likes failure. All you have to do is read the recent posts on the threads on here from the likes of us, Ayr, Arbroath and, till a few months back, Queen of the South.

Look at this thread as being a good example - doom, gloom, apathy and pointless speculation like this topic. No positivity at all, except for the prospect of new ownership. 

Scraping survival if Inverness had scored a third goal the other night would not have been 'success' or changed the mood. A desperate, turgid campaign is in itself failure and one which does not attract buy-in. 

The actual point in those threads you should be paying attention to are the pledges from Ayr fans to chuck their contributions/streaming the games while watching dung Hopkinball from February to April. That cannot happen to the MCT scheme next season in a similar position, or else the entire transition model falls apart.

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Second. In this disaffected and Covid influenced word relegation will certainly see season ticket numbers and overall attendances drop. Conversely, stay in the Championship and it'll all feel a lot better, the old order having been left behind and the new adventure just beginning.

Erm no. You've just conceded the fact that relegation does not reduce home season ticket sales and now are trying to cite Covid as some magical exception to this rule. 

If the team is most likely is losing 0-1 with zero shots on goal next season under McPherson's management then the old order has not been left behind and the goodwill will be gone for good. 

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Third. You are convinced that if we stay up this season NEXT season will inevitably be a war of attrition that inevitably will end with relegation next May, leading to disenchantment and, to quote you, "there will not be sustained buy-in and so the premise of fan ownership falls apart". I don't share that pessimism about relegation next year, 

Then you are quite frankly deluded about the scale of the task facing the new ownership: rebuilding the club from top to bottom, with three-four weeks less time than our competitors and no greater resources than any side in the division apart from Arbroath. 

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Fourth. You totally ignore the effect that Covid and enforced absence of fans from games has had. 

The impact on fan behaviour from Covid is the same regardless of what league the team is playing in next season, and so is irrelevant to this discussion. It's an entirely separate concern that any club should have, but 'Championship football!' is not the deal-breaker that you think it is.

Edited by vikingTON

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2 hours ago, JessieField said:

It's going to be fun when MCT have to decide who's running what between themselves!  Fan ownership is not a guaranteed stairway to success.

I think they have already decided who is running what. According to Companies House, MCT has 5 directors. Various others are also involved in running it, per their website.

https://mortonclubtogether.com/leadership-team/

I don’t think anybody has claimed fan ownership is a guaranteed stairway to success. It is the model they have chosen and I wish them all the best with it.

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We'll stay up. 

Here's my very cunning logic why: 

Montrose and Airdrie are pish, they only have their position due to only having to play 22 games. they would have fell away over a full season, with Falkirk being in the mix. 

Cove Rangers aren't that great either, we'll beat them over two legs. Our cup game is pretty solid this year, which is essentially what a play off is. I'd argue if we had had a full quota of games we would have been safe. 

 

I'm correct, no need to disagree. 

 

Thank you. 

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5 hours ago, virginton said:

Scraping survival if Inverness had scored a third goal the other night would not have been 'success' or changed the mood. A desperate, turgid campaign is in itself failure and one which does not attract buy-in.  

 Hmm, as per usual you’re choosing to cherrypick some statements out of context  in order to support your rickety stance. 
If you really think the mood amongst the support would NOT have changed had we finished 8th last Friday then there is truly no point in debating it with you, though I think you’re just choosing to ignore it because it doesn’t fit your hopelessly entrenched position. If we somehow get through the next two weeks with our Championship status intact then we’ll see just how much the mood changes.

The actual point in those threads you should be paying attention to are the pledges from Ayr fans to chuck their contributions/streaming the games while watching dung Hopkinball from February to April. Think you’ll find the mood there has lightened quite a bit these last few days, too, which again supports my point.

That cannot happen to the MCT scheme next season in a similar position, or else the entire transition model falls apart.  Never said it would - what a pointless statement.

 

Erm no. You've just conceded the fact that relegation does not reduce home season ticket sales and now are trying to cite Covid as some magical exception to this rule.  
😳Ermmm, no. I said nothing of the kind. Quite the opposite, in fact. Why do you insist on doing this time after time?? As  for Covid, the effect it has had due to lockdown & games beamed from empty stadiums is to make some fans realise they can get by without going to games. Add to that the apathy induced by relegation and you could be losing some of the support for good.

 

If the team is most likely is losing 0-1 with zero shots on goal next season under McPherson's management then the old order has not been left behind and the goodwill will be gone for good.  Whit?? The Raes are that “old order”; THEY will have “gone for good”. What the hell are you wittering on about?

 

Then you are quite frankly deluded about the scale of the task facing the new ownership: rebuilding the club from top to bottom, with three-four weeks less time than our competitors and no greater resources than any side in the division apart from Arbroath. Oh come now, we’re talking about a small Scottish football club - it’s hardly Glaxo Smith Klein. And we will finish our season two and a half weeks after the rest. And, funnily enough, that two and a half weeks is when most players and managers tend to take their summer breaks..... so, again, what’s your point?  In addition, I think it’s quite likely that MCT already have an idea of who they might want as manager - who knows, they might even have sounded him out. And if they have, then he in turn could already have signings in mind. All of a sudden we wouldn’t be far behind the rest at all, hmmm?

 

The impact on fan behaviour from Covid is the same regardless of what league the team is playing in next season, and so is irrelevant to this discussion. Nonsense - it’s ENTIRELY relevant. As I said, “ Covid has had such an effect that if we lose fans this season - ie by going down - we will have a hell of a job getting them back. A lot of people have found other things to do that are cheaper and/or more enjoyable than going to the fitba' “.

 

It's an entirely separate concern that any club should have, but 'Championship football!' is not the deal-breaker that you think it is. Aye? Sez you - I beg to differ.

 

You’re having an absolute mare on this topic. Seriously, you should step away from the keyboard for a while, or go and annoy folk on other forums.

 

Edited by Rudolph Hucker

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