Jump to content

The Greenock Morton Thread - It's Better Than Yours


Recommended Posts

12 hours ago, GaryMc93 said:

Out of interest is Cameron Salkeld injured or just out of favour?

Seems like he's a decent height, bit of a headless chicken but tries hard which sounds exactly the type of player Hopkin will want for us at Ayr next season.

I’d be disappointed if we re-signed even if we’re relegated, so will be very surprised if he gets a gig in the Championship.

To be fair to him, he’s got a really good attitude and great running power... but he’s also got a first-touch you wouldn’t expect to see even three or four tiers down.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, Dunning1874 said:

Right, it is possible that after being relegated in a couple of weeks time we could 1. transition to part-time football, 2. win promotion at some point in the next three/four next seasons, 3. stay up, 4. transition back to full-time possibly via a hybrid setup, then 5. have a crack at being better than we are now a few years into MCT's ownership rather than them scrambling a bargain bin full-time Championship squad together this summer while they're beginning the process of overhauling the club off the park.

While all the above is possible if we get absolutely everything right immediately after over 20 years of being a complete binfire off the park, a far more likely path from relegation and step 1 is 2. Stay down for years showing no sign of a serious promotion challenge leading to 3. The size of the club shrinking through years of reduced revenue and fans walking away. Effectively following Airdrie's managed decline of the last decade, seriously harming our chances of ever being able to consolidate as a second tier club again.

Less likely than the Airdrie route but still more likely than actually leaving us in a better place than staying up is 2. trying to transition to part-time football while trying to restructure the club off the park at the same time turns into a disaster, 3. we make a bad managerial appointment and 4. we find ourselves right in another relegation battle, staring at successive relegations leading to 5. MCT lose credibility among a large portion of the support with some stopping their contributions. The Clyde route.

Yes, we're a bigger club with a bigger support than Clyde or Brechin so should be able to have a more competitive budget and avoid that humiliation, but it's just arrogance to dismiss the possibility entirely.

We hear this 'relegation could be a good thing for the club' rhetoric every time a club is in this position. People thinking it'll be a good thing to go and compete at the top end of a division rather than circling the drain in their current one, and the momentum from going down and winning can be carried into their return to the higher division. It rarely works out that way; see Falkirk fans making that argument in 2010. You're not just making a similar argument that it might be good on the pitch and fans are more likely to be on board as a result, you're arguing that it's somehow easier for a fan takeover to succeed in this scenario when the reality is that it makes it far more likely for the club to become unsustainable and MCT to fail.

The absolute best platform for MCT to hit the ground running and sucfessfully implement their plans for the club is to inherit a Championship club with the revenue that brings.

Believe me relegation will NOT be a "good thing" for a club mortons size. L1 is a viciously competitive league. There is a sheet of paper between the full and part time teams. Even forfar who are down have had some crazily good performances. The part time players commitment is unquestionable and your club will be the scalp everyone wants, for the 1st season down anyway. 

Look at the state we were in the first chunk of this season. I believe if there had been no 2nd football lockdown, we would have continued to drift towards the bottom of the table and might have been too far behind after the new year to do anything other than stave off relegation to L2. If a club the size if ours they need to bounce straight back up at first time of asking or run the risk of many years of oblivion. Just ask airdrie, clyde, Falkirk. I wouldn't bet against Falkirk, unless they get their shit together, being in a relegation dog fight next season. Re building has to be from a position of strength and not a continuous downward spiral in L1 and 2.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, banditjag said:

Believe me relegation will NOT be a "good thing" for a club mortons size. L1 is a viciously competitive league. There is a sheet of paper between the full and part time teams. Even forfar who are down have had some crazily good performances. The part time players commitment is unquestionable and your club will be the scalp everyone wants, for the 1st season down anyway. 

Look at the state we were in the first chunk of this season. I believe if there had been no 2nd football lockdown, we would have continued to drift towards the bottom of the table and might have been too far behind after the new year to do anything other than stave off relegation to L2. If a club the size if ours they need to bounce straight back up at first time of asking or run the risk of many years of oblivion. Just ask airdrie, clyde, Falkirk. I wouldn't bet against Falkirk, unless they get their shit together, being in a relegation dog fight next season. Re building has to be from a position of strength and not a continuous downward spiral in L1 and 2.

I believe you. No, I do.

Most Morton supporters are keechin themselves at the prospect of relegation... while fully expecting it to happen.

Manager and players need to throw everything they’ve got at making sure it doesn’t.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, banditjag said:

Believe me relegation will NOT be a "good thing" for a club mortons size. L1 is a viciously competitive league. There is a sheet of paper between the full and part time teams. Even forfar who are down have had some crazily good performances. The part time players commitment is unquestionable and your club will be the scalp everyone wants, for the 1st season down anyway. 

Look at the state we were in the first chunk of this season. I believe if there had been no 2nd football lockdown, we would have continued to drift towards the bottom of the table and might have been too far behind after the new year to do anything other than stave off relegation to L2. If a club the size if ours they need to bounce straight back up at first time of asking or run the risk of many years of oblivion. Just ask airdrie, clyde, Falkirk. I wouldn't bet against Falkirk, unless they get their shit together, being in a relegation dog fight next season. Re building has to be from a position of strength and not a continuous downward spiral in L1 and 2.

The tiny prize sums and almost uniformly small attendance numbers are a key factor in the evenness of the play in L1/L2. A large attendance club dropping into the league is a welcome bump in gate for all, but despite what you knight think, not a huge advantage to the entering club. Let’s say you pull 1,000 extra every game, that gives you 16 more large gates than the others in the league (18 home games minus your two games there). However, those are most likely to be Season Tickets, so let’s call it an easy £200-£250 per (8/9ths a ST cost), times 1000, that’s a £200,000-250,000. Sounds quite the figure until you compare it to the costs that the club is likely desperately shedding due to the fall.

Now, with the reorganization of Morton occurring at the same time, it is conceivable that it could work in Morton’s favor to drop a league. However, the loss of fan support that would occur is a long-term handicap unless you manage a quick return. After a couple of seasons battering ones head against the promotion wall in League One, it is very hard to keep fans optimism and belief.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, The Ghost of B A R P said:

I believe you. No, I do.

Most Morton supporters are keechin themselves at the prospect of relegation... while fully expecting it to happen.

Manager and players need to throw everything they’ve got at making sure it doesn’t.

Don’t worry, if it happens a spot of MEDICINE will helpmedicine GIF

Edited by Sting777
Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 hours ago, Dunning1874 said:

Right, it is possible that after being relegated in a couple of weeks time we could 1. transition to part-time football, 2. win promotion at some point in the next three/four next seasons, 3. stay up, 4. transition back to full-time possibly via a hybrid setup, then 5. have a crack at being better than we are now a few years into MCT's ownership rather than them scrambling a bargain bin full-time Championship squad together this summer while they're beginning the process of overhauling the club off the park.

While all the above is possible if we get absolutely everything right immediately after over 20 years of being a complete binfire off the park, a far more likely path from relegation and step 1 is 2. Stay down for years showing no sign of a serious promotion challenge leading to 3. The size of the club shrinking through years of reduced revenue and fans walking away. Effectively following Airdrie's managed decline of the last decade, seriously harming our chances of ever being able to consolidate as a second tier club again.

Drivel. The onus is on the fans as the future custodians of the club to invest in it rather than throwing their dummy tit out because we're not winning a league title. If you do not believe that this is possible then our new ownership model is a busted flush and we've got far bigger issues to face than worrying about which league we'll be playing in.

Quote

Less likely than the Airdrie route but still more likely than actually leaving us in a better place than staying up is 2. trying to transition to part-time football while trying to restructure the club off the park at the same time turns into a disaster, 3. we make a bad managerial appointment and 4. we find ourselves right in another relegation battle, staring at successive relegations leading to 5. MCT lose credibility among a large portion of the support with some stopping their contributions. The Clyde route.

The most likely route to the above outcome is by 'surviving' in a division that we are fundamentally not equipped to be fully competitive in, and then for MCT to take the flak for yet another dire relegation campaign rather than the discredited Rae regime.

The best way to protect the credibility of the new ownership then is for the punishment for twenty years of accumulated dysfunction and failure to be inflicted on the current incumbents as their final legacy to daddy on their way out, never to darken the door of Cappielow again. A clean break is required and there is no cleaner break in competitive league sport than relegation.

Quote

Yes, we're a bigger club with a bigger support than Clyde or Brechin so should be able to have a more competitive budget and avoid that humiliation, but it's just arrogance to dismiss the possibility entirely.

No, it is shrill attention-seeking nonsense to compare our situation to Clyde - no assets; tenants to the council etc. - when it does not even remotely reflect the reality of this club. 

Quote

We hear this 'relegation could be a good thing for the club' rhetoric every time a club is in this position. People thinking it'll be a good thing to go and compete at the top end of a division rather than circling the drain in their current one, and the momentum from going down and winning can be carried into their return to the higher division. It rarely works out that way; see Falkirk fans making that argument in 2010. You're not just making a similar argument that it might be good on the pitch and fans are more likely to be on board as a result, you're arguing that it's somehow easier for a fan takeover to succeed in this scenario when

No, once again you are creating a straw man about 'a challenge at the top'. Show me where this has been stated as an advantage of relegation in this case. 

Relegation serves a natural purpose in forcing clubs to rethink their failed strategy and many if not most clubs return stronger for it. If they cannot do so then they don't deserve to be at a higher level. That's competitive sport. 

Quote

the reality is that it makes it far more likely for the club to become unsustainable and MCT to fail.

Once again, utter nonsense. The MCT proposal confirms that the overwhelming cost of running the football club are first team costs, which are inherently adjustable to income. It is not the third and fourth tier clubs who lose money hand over fist and go into administration in Scottish football: it is second tier outfits who think that they have a divine right to play at a higher level and so pay wages they cannot afford. 

There is absolutely zero threat to the sustainability of the club from lower tier football then. The threat is having an ownership model that foolishly refuses to adjust to financial reality, such as the failed Rae regime. 

Quote

The absolute best platform for MCT to hit the ground running and sucfessfully implement their plans for the club is to inherit a Championship club with the revenue that brings.

Except that they quite clearly can't 'hit the ground running', given that our Championship league status cannot be secured before an as yet undetermined date. Thanks for playing anyway then.

Edited by vikingTON
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, baba douche said:

'You're a fucking arsehole'

 

Do you want that on  headed paper?

Is that from you or Jacqui?

If that’s how you’re feeling after being promoted, btw, I’d hate to see you after going down... oh wait...

Spoiler

Hope to see you again next season.

Love,

The Ton

x

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

15 hours ago, The Ghost of B A R P said:

Good to see Jacqui Low’s Barmy Army have suddenly found their voices again...

Will there be a statement?

Glad you are happy given your clubs dire predicament and don’t worry a massive statement will follow if you lot end up at the seaside next season🤣🤣

Link to comment
Share on other sites

18 hours ago, virginton said:

Drivel. The onus is on the fans as the future custodians of the club to invest in it rather than throwing their dummy tit out because we're not winning a league title. If you do not believe that this is possible then our new ownership model is a busted flush and we've got far bigger issues to face than worrying about which league we'll be playing in.

You and I both know what football fans are like. Neither of us are going to spit the dummy out and stop our contributions if the team is shite; we can name plenty of people who will. This is the unavoidable reality of being in League One for several years, and you're deluding yourself by claiming otherwise.

Quote

 

The most likely route to the above outcome is by 'surviving' in a division that we are fundamentally not equipped to be fully competitive in, and then for MCT to take the flak for yet another dire relegation campaign rather than the discredited Rae regime.

The best way to protect the credibility of the new ownership then is for the punishment for twenty years of accumulated dysfunction and failure to be inflicted on the current incumbents as their final legacy to daddy on their way out, never to darken the door of Cappielow again. A clean break is required and there is no cleaner break in competitive league sport than relegation.

 

As above, if you think MCT wouldn't take flak and lose credibility for their first act in charge of the club being a decision to move to part-time football, followed by overseeing years of mid-table League One stagnation, you are deluding yourself.  Regardless of the relegation being sealed before the takeover is complete, they will take the blame for failing to get back up regardless of whether that decision is the correct one for a sustainable future after inheriting a third tier club. These are entirely uncontroversial and irrefutable facts.

Quote

No, once again you are creating a straw man about 'a challenge at the top'. Show me where this has been stated as an advantage of relegation in this case.

You're moving the goalposts here. My challenge at the top point was an example of similar rhetoric from other clubs about relegation being a good thing because things'll be better on the pitch, regardless of whether that includes a title challenge or not in our case, with you having said in previous posts:

Quote

people are simply not going to continue chipping in for monthly subscriptions and at the gate for the exact same turgid rubbish as this campaign,

Quote

League One football is not a picnic but there is absolutely no reason why the club cannot select a manager who is willing to play an attacking style of football and for the manager to stick to that outlook.

Your argument is that things will undoubtedly be better to watch on the pitch, therefore fans will be more on board and MCT's credibility will be protected, with their income from supporter contributions therefore likely to be maintained. My point is that there is no guarantee it will be better to watch rather than continuing to be turgid shite. Even if it is attendances and general fan interest - feeding into support for MCT - will be smaller, as proven by the attendances of 99% of clubs which have been relegated from the Championship to League One. The extremely rare exceptions being those which win the league at the first time of asking, which we agree Morton will not do.

Quote

Relegation serves a natural purpose in forcing clubs to rethink their failed strategy and many if not most clubs return stronger for it. 

Good thing we'll have relegation to force the club into rethinking the strategy then. It's not like we have any other reason to believe that might happen, for example a new organisation taking over who are reviewing every aspect of club and planning to implement a strategy to reverse the legacy of 20 years of incompetence.

Quote

 

Once again, utter nonsense. The MCT proposal confirms that the overwhelming cost of running the football club are first team costs, which are inherently adjustable to income. It is not the third and fourth tier clubs who lose money hand over fist and go into administration in Scottish football: it is second tier outfits who think that they have a divine right to play at a higher level and so pay wages they cannot afford. 

There is absolutely zero threat to the sustainability of the club from lower tier football then. The threat is having an ownership model that foolishly refuses to adjust to financial reality, such as the failed Rae regime.

 

The single greatest cost to a football club is the first team budget. Yes, obviously. Spending less on that playing budget while trying to carry out a complete restructure of the club doesn't actually mean the loss of over £100K in prize money along with reduced attendances and less exposure is insignificant.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Dunning1874 said:

You and I both know what football fans are like. Neither of us are going to spit the dummy out and stop our contributions if the team is shite; we can name plenty of people who will. This is the unavoidable reality of being in League One for several years, and you're deluding yourself by claiming otherwise.

Then the entire business model of the club - based on your unchanging view of supporter behaviour - rests on a mantra of 'don't ever get relegated and don't spend any extended time in the league below either'. Which is as ludicrously unsustainable a model as Dundee's insistence on top flight football, or Douglas Rae's 4000 crowds a week budgeting in the second tier.

Fan ownership requires a fundamental change in the relationship between the fans and the football club, after twenty years of being tolerated as the revolting plebs who pay up to keep the show on the road but otherwise should be neither seen nor heard from. That change has to take place on both sides and if you do not believe that this can occur then fan ownership is an act of doomed folly all along. It cannot be propped up indefinitely by Championship prize money.  

That is the only option on the table. If fans as owners do not step up to the plate then we do not deserve to have a second tier club. It's really that straightforward now.

Quote

As above, if you think MCT wouldn't take flak and lose credibility for their first act in charge of the club being a decision to move to part-time football, followed by overseeing years of mid-table League One stagnation, you are deluding yourself.  Regardless of the relegation being sealed before the takeover is complete, they will take the blame for failing to get back up regardless of whether that decision is the correct one for a sustainable future after inheriting a third tier club. These are entirely uncontroversial and irrefutable facts.

Compared to the prospect of relegation and turgid football within twelve months, your scenario is both less likely and has less impact on the overall credibility of MCT. And those are the only relevant facts for this discussion. 

Quote

 

You're moving the goalposts here. My challenge at the top point was an example of similar rhetoric from other clubs about relegation being a good thing because things'll be better on the pitch, regardless of whether that includes a title challenge or not in our case, with you having said in previous posts:

Your argument is that things will undoubtedly be better to watch on the pitch, therefore fans will be more on board and MCT's credibility will be protected, with their income from supporter contributions therefore likely to be maintained.

'Better to watch' is not even remotely synonymous with 'challenging at the top', which is why your comparison completely falls apart.  

Quote

My point is that there is no guarantee it will be better to watch rather than continuing to be turgid shite.

I can categorically guarantee that Greenock Morton could appoint a manager and recruit a squad that registers more than zero shots on goal on a regular basis in League One, if it chooses to make this its priority. A commitment to attacking football is entirely separate from winning a league or competing at the top and is entirely within the scope of the club playing at a lower level. 

A Championship campaign that is obsessed with keeping hold of prize money will almost certainly devolve into turgid shitfesting without the resources and time to recruit effectively this summer. 

Quote

Even if it is attendances and general fan interest - feeding into support for MCT - will be smaller, as proven by the attendances of 99% of clubs which have been relegated from the Championship to League One. The extremely rare exceptions being those which win the league at the first time of asking, which we agree Morton will not do.

Except that's not true. The reason why attendances generally fall between Championship and League One is because you have substantially fewer away fans. Meanwhile, the average attendance at Morton regularly declines while in the second tier - because more and more of the core support become disengaged with the turgid, attritional fayre that is all too often served up. 

The killer to home attendances is in fact the combination of losing and negative football that your scenario guarantees. 

Quote

Good thing we'll have relegation to force the club into rethinking the strategy then. It's not like we have any other reason to believe that might happen, for example a new organisation taking over who are reviewing every aspect of club and planning to implement a strategy to reverse the legacy of 20 years of incompetence.

Erm yes, and how exactly is that comprehensive review of every aspect of club administration going to be carried out and completed in the seven weeks estimated - we still don't even fucking know exactly how long - between confirmation of Championship status in a play-off final and the start of next season's campaign? 

I can see what would likely happen a mile off then. Due to the insane shortage of time available to it, the new regime will be obliged to smooth the transition and make certain compromises for the sake of keeping your beloved second tier status next summer as well. One of the most likely and logical ones being an extension to the current caretaker manager's contract so that first team affairs are not flying blind all the way through June - not to mention a reward for successfully maneuvering the club through the play-offs. So as a result, instead of having a clean break that is urgently required, we get 18 months of turgid Gusball under two different regimes and relegation with sub-900 home fans by March 2022. 

A play-off success would be a Pyrrhic victory of epic proportions then. 

Quote

The single greatest cost to a football club is the first team budget. Yes, obviously. Spending less on that playing budget while trying to carry out a complete restructure of the club doesn't actually mean the loss of over £100K in prize money along with reduced attendances and less exposure is insignificant.

You described the drop to a lower league as 'unsustainable' for the club though, which is categorically wrong. I'll take this backtrack as your mewling acceptance of this fact. 

Edited by vikingTON
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 01/05/2021 at 21:57, GaryMc93 said:

Out of interest is Cameron Salkeld injured or just out of favour?

Seems like he's a decent height, bit of a headless chicken but tries hard which sounds exactly the type of player Hopkin will want for us at Ayr next season.

A decent lad but sadly has less control over the ball than most people have with their central heating.

On the plus side I definately think he would have scored in those last five games if played in front of Orsi etc.

Maybe Gus will give him a shout in the playoffs.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

20 hours ago, virginton said:

A play-off success would be a Pyrrhic victory of epic proportions then. 

You're arguing that the single-biggest factor for any club -- revenue -- can be set aside in the present case, for a combination of the following reasons:

1. that the football on offer will be better in L1;
2. that supporters are (therefore) more likely to cut MCT some slack and continue their financial support;
3. that some of the financial impact will be offset a. by a (relatively) larger home support turning out to watch a 'winning' team and b. by having a lower wage bill;
4. that squad-building in the time-scale determined by being in the play-offs will be easier in L1;
5. that the comprehensive overhaul the club requires is more likely to take place and/or will be easier to achieve in L1.

As I've said before, I don't think it's possible to say that any of that is definitively 'wrong' (we're speculating about what will or might happen in the future, after all); but your argument that staying up isn't the best thing for us ('Pyrrhic victory') has to overcome the basic force of the central point about revenue. I don't think it comes close to doing that, for reasons I'll try to arrange around the above headings:

1. that is possible/probable, but not by any means a certainty;

2. more important, I just don't buy the argument that the supporters' commitment to making financial contributions will turn on what people are seeing on the park in the first year of new ownership; the credibility of MCT in general and their perceived progress in undertaking the 'comprehensive overhaul' is far more likely to be the key consideration. Contributors have stuck with it (and numbers increased) through this season, which has been, for all sorts of reasons, the worst possible environment in which to enthuse the support. Even if we conclude that what league we're in next year makes no difference with regard to supporters' contributions, we're still back to the fundamental point that whatever supporter contribution there is will be on top of the club's main sources of revenue... which will be lower in L1;

3. again, even if we assume the first part of that to be true, we're still talking about mitigating loss of income, not maintaining what we have. The second part is more difficult: yes, we may be able to reduce the wage bill more or less substantially... but, from where we're starting, that means moving to a hybrid part-time structure. If that's what has to happen, fine; but let's not kid ourselves we're already at the 'Arbroath model' argument and that there are large question marks against ever coming back from that, i.e. we risk setting the limit of the club's ambition at 'surviving in the Championship';

4. not proven. Whatever league we're in and whoever the manager is, a core squad will have to be assembled over a 6-8 week period. Whether it's a new manager MCT have their eye on or McPherson getting the nod (and regardless of what division we're in), it's highly likely that 10-12 of the current squad will be offered deals, with 6-8 new faces coming in (some as loans), and we run with a smaller but better squad than this year. That's not the clear-out some supporters would like, but, as you acknowledge, compromise is likely... but because of the time-scale, not because of relegation.  Even if whoever is the manager decides to go for a clear-out, the task is just as difficult in L1... in fact, if we are relegated and there's a need to move to a hybrid part-time structure, you could argue it's even more difficult on the time-scale available, because the club has to adapt to a different player market along with everything else that's going on;

5. it's not credible to imagine that a 'comprehensive overhaul' can be undertaken on a 6-8 week time-scale, regardless of relegation or not. More important, it doesn't have to: getting a manager and squad in place will be the first priority, of necessity, new ownership or not. The broader overhaul is a massive task and will be ongoing for maybe 18 months... and, again, I don't see how that process will be positively affected because we're somehow 'under less pressure' ticking along in the middle of L1. You seem to imply that an overhaul is also more likely to take place in L1 than if we survive; again, that's just supposition. The reality is -- we agree -- that it has to happen and that it'll be a long and difficult process, no matter what league we're in... but it will have more chance of taking place successfully if the club has greater revenues. No apologies for the fact that we come back round again to money. If going into L1 magically opened up new revenue streams for us, or the loss was only marginal, we'd be having a different discussion altogether...

I'm tempted to say in conclusion that we should just ask MCT what their views are on the merits or otherwise of some purging relegation... but I think it's pretty clear what the answer would be.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

16 minutes ago, Dunning1874 said:

Excellent news, glad to see it all confirmed as going ahead.

Onward and upward (not downward) from here on.......   hopefully!   👍

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...