Jump to content
Tri-TON

The Greenock Morton Thread - It's Better Than Yours

Recommended Posts

The "rebuilding is easier at a lower level because we're just circling the drain in the Championship" argument is predicated on the entirely false assumption that there's no risk of circling the drain in League One. Dismissing the possibility of following a Clyde like trajectory from here is just total complacency.

If we're managing a transition to fan ownership and restructuring the club against a backdrop of relegation to a League One containing two or three full-time sides (depending who wins the playoff) along with some big spending and/or well-run part-time clubs, while possibly going part-time ourselves, we are one bad managerial appointment away from total disaster.

The club has been a complete binfire off the park for over 20 years, fixing that is going to take a long time and it's obviously going to be considerably harder to do if we become a perennial third/fourth tier club rather than remaining in the Championship.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If you think that the new ownership can put out the binfire, bring in a whole new slate of competent officials from top to bottom behind the scenes - including a new chief executive and manager - and then put anything on the pitch that isn't massively disadvantaged to its rivals in an objectively tougher division next season then you are deluded. That's not a realistic option on the table.

The probabilistic choice then is between i) circling the drain next season and taking the plunge or ii) doing so now and giving the new ownership leeway in terms of first team pressures to get the structure and personnel right behind the scenes. And if that got us a sneak play-off run towards the end of next season or more, then all the better. The most important thing is categorically not what level we are playing in but rather getting the structure and business model right behind the scenes though. If we do not do this then the limit of ambitions for good will be Championship football. So no, let's not worry about not getting Inverness away for a couple of seasons. 

The first option will also completely kill the membership model that is a key part of the transition plan. I have absolutely no doubt about this: people are simply not going to continue chipping in for monthly subscriptions and at the gate for the exact same turgid rubbish as this campaign, only with a new set of folk in club ties in the main stand. That is unsustainable without delivering something that is not entirely fucking tedious on a weekly basis. 

Edited by vikingTON

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
52 minutes ago, virginton said:

You are aware that League One is a significantly lower standard of football than the Championship? That's how the vast majority of clubs who go down manage to do better the following season. They might have less prize money and resources than before but so do most of the clubs around them. 

To survive in the Championship next season on the other hand, we would most likely need to get the vast majority of our recruitment right across the board. How likely is this to happen when we are also changing board, appointing a chief executive and implementing a new business model? We would be weeks behind our rivals in squadbuilding at this level without any advantage in funding to compensate for this. Indeed we are already a couple of weeks behind by virtue of being in the play-offs. That disarray would be punished with another turgid campaign and almost certain relegation. 

You and many others who argue this have got the situation entirely the wrong way round then. The easiest way to undertake the complete rebuild needed behind the scenes this summer involves relegation to the dung level that the current nick of a club quite frankly belongs to. The onus is then on the new regime - representing the fans rather than some stupid sweetie company - to get the decisions right to rebuild the club after twenty years of accumulated dysfunction.  

It's also striking how many people who make this argument quite clearly haven't read the takeover proposal properly, because if you had then you'd note that gate receipts and prize money are not the make or break difference for this to work. It also requires continued fan buy-in, and there's not much worse for that than another of turgid, zero shots on target shitfesting under the guise of new ownership. 

A relegation to sign off the horrible extended Rae family's legacy to their patriarch is both deserved and in the better interest of the club going forward. 

I see where you’re coming from... but I don’t agree.

Far too many assumptions built into your argument (not to mention the weird assumption that a contrary view means people haven’t thought about it properly).

First, we’re about to find out if L1 is a ‘comfortably lower standard’. If it is, Morton will surely overcome any team not good enough to win it and the problem goes away? Reality is, no one would bet on that, because the difference in standard is actually minimal.

Context for this is that the objective for the new regime in the Championship would be to finish 7th or 8th, whereas the objective in L1 would be to win it. Remember when we just pipped the mighty Stranraer? Remember the rage that would have removed Duffy at the first time of asking if we had failed?

All it takes is one other team down there getting their act together and the downward spiral begins... Look at Falkirk (apologies): bigger fan-base than us, bigger turnover... and absolutely dying on their arses, their supporters utterly baffled as to why they can’t get back into - and let this sink in - the second tier of Scottish football.

As for squad building: even this collection of misfits would have stayed up comfortably with the addition of a single credible option up front. Not saying it’s easy, but it isn’t exactly complex. The margins are that fine and that simple.

I’ve been a member of MCT since the launch, have read everything they’ve put out, and am well aware that the business model is predicated on continued financial support from us. But on top of what? Championship prize-money, a margin on season-tickets and gates... or significantly reduced income in the context of what is essentially a semi-pro set up?

You might be right that we would stabilise and find our way back; but the risks are massive and we’re just as, if not more, likely to head into Airdrie or Clyde territory.

It’s not about what we or the Raes ‘deserve’; it’s about what gives us the strongest base from which to recover.

We need to stay up at all costs.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 hours ago, VivaLaDron said:

 

unnamed (2).jpg

That's a fucking cracker mate.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted my last before seeing exchange between Dunning and VT (which I won't quote to keep the thread short).

Seems to me there are two huge assumptions built into VT's argument (over and above the ones mentioned in the earlier post): 1. 'We'll eventually get relegated anyway, so we might as well go down now'; 2. 'Supporters are more likely to give financial support in L1 than the Championship'.

Again , that might turn out to be right, but there's nothing compelling about those arguments. As said earlier, if we could just about survive with this squad this year, why wouldn't we do better next? The second one is stranger, because there's another assumption built into it: the assumption that the football would be any less turgid in L1. Would it really?

Personally, I think the supporters are more likely to maintain their commitment on the back of a. staying up; b. the buy-out actually happening and the whole MCT thing becoming 'real'; c. the appointment of a manager who gives cause for optimism. Yeah, I know there are fairly substantial assumptions built into the last of those... but that surely has to be our 'best-case scenario'.

Getting relegated might not turn out to be a total disaster in the medium-term... but to argue that it's the best thing for us at this point in time is somewhere between 'bold' and 'plain wrong'.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

1) The reason why we almost certainly wouldn't do better next season boil down to a) tougher competition financially (if we stay up, then the league replaces Alloa for Partick) 

b) the complete turnover of the club behind the scenes before we can even think about putting a squad together and

c) the huge delay in squadbuilding both this fact and the play-offs themselves create. 

And then even if the club got all of its ducks in a row, there is still no convincing reason to expect that the squad assembled wouldn't just be dung again. Expecting any if not all of these factors to not drag down next season's prospect is an unrealistic expectation. 

2) We mustered literally zero shots on goal in a must-win match just last night and it's not even remotely out of place in our season. It is not possible for the product to get any more turgid than this: you cannot achieve negative shots on target.

League One football is not a picnic but there is absolutely no reason why the club cannot select a manager who is willing to play an attacking style of football and for the manager to stick to that outlook. On the other hand, there is every incentive for the club to appoint a negative shitfester if we stay up; in fact, I'd expect McPherson to get the gig for a year to smooth the transition.

And with that miserable, 20 point campaign next season goes not just one season but the entire fucking premise of the fan ownership model. It's a no from me.  

Edited by vikingTON

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It’s an interesting pair of choices, but it fails to address another elephant in the room.

League One next year will potentially have a Falkirk being completely rebuilt and laser-focused on promotion and a Queens Park bankrolled for promotion. Assuming Cove roll over Morton in the playoffs, there would also be a perennial contender Airdrie and an always battling Alloa to fight as well. Waiting a year would potentially add either Brora or Kelty into that mix. The possibility is truly there for a multiple year sojourn in the seaside league (see Raith and Falkirk for details) on a Brechin like collapse.

The Championship next year will likely be less tightly grouped, with Partick and Hamilton replacing Hearts and Alloa. Ross County, Kilmarnock or Dundee are a wash, but the two certain additions are both likely to be top 5 teams. That certainly validates VT’s concerns with regards to a rebuild on the go.

Of the two, I suspect the latter, remaining in the Championship is the slightly less risky approach, but may result in a horrific season and a relegation next year.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
33 minutes ago, TxRover said:

It’s an interesting pair of choices, but it fails to address another elephant in the room.

League One next year will potentially have a Falkirk being completely rebuilt and laser-focused on promotion and a Queens Park bankrolled for promotion. Assuming Cove roll over Morton in the playoffs, there would also be a perennial contender Airdrie and an always battling Alloa to fight as well. Waiting a year would potentially add either Brora or Kelty into that mix. The possibility is truly there for a multiple year sojourn in the seaside league (see Raith and Falkirk for details) on a Brechin like collapse.

The Championship next year will likely be less tightly grouped, with Partick and Hamilton replacing Hearts and Alloa. Ross County, Kilmarnock or Dundee are a wash, but the two certain additions are both likely to be top 5 teams. That certainly validates VT’s concerns with regards to a rebuild on the go.

Of the two, I suspect the latter, remaining in the Championship is the slightly less risky approach, but may result in a horrific season and a relegation next year.

Where have we failed to address this invisible elephant? Said quite clearly at the outset that it only takes one team getting its act together in L1 to make it a really difficult proposition... two or three makes it much tougher than trying to finish 8th in the league above.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, The Ghost of B A R P said:

Where have we failed to address this invisible elephant? Said quite clearly at the outset that it only takes one team getting its act together in L1 to make it a really difficult proposition... two or three makes it much tougher than trying to finish 8th in the league above.

You addressed that, but you didn’t seem to clearly address the VT concerns of a possible horrendous season in the Championship...in a similar manner that he somewhat glossed over the strengthening of League One. I guess I could have phrased it better, but both sides are drumming the fears on one side and suggesting the other is sunshine and rainbows.

In either case, reconstructing the club is going to be a long and unthankful task.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, TxRover said:

You addressed that, but you didn’t seem to clearly address the VT concerns of a possible horrendous season in the Championship...in a similar manner that he somewhat glossed over the strengthening of League One. I guess I could have phrased it better, but both sides are drumming the fears on one side and suggesting the other is sunshine and rainbows.

In either case, reconstructing the club is going to be a long and unthankful task.

Sure... but I guess if you’re a Morton (or Raith) supporter, the possibility of a horrendous season in the Championship can never be ruled out...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Morton sounding a bit “falkirk-y” with the chat sounding like “aye lets go down because we can rebuild and walk the league”. League one will be tough next year. Suspect queens park will be the favourites with the rest scrapping for plays offs

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm not glossing over the strength of League One at all.

I expect the nature of the rebuild to practically require a multi-year stint in the third tier. If we can get our house in order soon enough to make a serious run in the play-offs or better towards the end of Year 1, then that's great, but that should not be the priority.

This has got nothing to do with a title challenge and better days out: it's about equipping the club/business as a whole to be viable first and better run and resourced in the long run. A necessary accompaniment to this should be a commitment to attacking football, though not something as daft as a 'philosophy' or a demand for winning football. Just trying to and actually scoring goals on a regular basis would be a start on the pitch, while we move to a hopefully much better model off the park.

Edited by vikingTON

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, Aufc said:

Morton sounding a bit “falkirk-y” with the chat sounding like “aye lets go down because we can rebuild and walk the league”. League one will be tough next year. Suspect queens park will be the favourites with the rest scrapping for plays offs

Where is this chat exactly? Be extremely specific. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, The Ghost of B A R P said:

Sure... but I guess if you’re a Morton (or Raith) supporter, the possibility of a horrendous season in the Championship can never be ruled out...

Believe me, I expect next year to be a rude awakening for a number of Raith fans! Without a significant influx of talent, the chances of us finishing top 5 will be slim, as a season long avoidance of injuries has never been our strong point, and this year we faded as the injuries accumulated. I’m just perplexed by the confidence of some that Morton can either stay somewhere between sixth and eighth in the Championship, or top four in League One, while rebuilding.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Where is this chat exactly? Be extremely specific. 


i hope you come down just so i get this level of chat on a weekly basis x

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
18 minutes ago, virginton said:

Where is this chat exactly? Be extremely specific. 

No need to be too specific. Falkirk fans were foaming at the mouth, raging that their team were in the “seaside league”, and adamant that they would go straight back up at the first time of asking. And with no less than a 20 point advantage. Seriously. Youve changed your tune, bearing in mind you're almost in that seaside league. Be specific? Youre the one that files almost every online conversation so rhat you can fire it back at them somewhere down the line. You find it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
25 minutes ago, etherglide said:

No need to be too specific. Falkirk fans were foaming at the mouth, raging that their team were in the “seaside league”, and adamant that they would go straight back up at the first time of asking. And with no less than a 20 point advantage. Seriously. Youve changed your tune, bearing in mind you're almost in that seaside league. Be specific? Youre the one that files almost every online conversation so rhat you can fire it back at them somewhere down the line. You find it.

choofed.gif.36238632e894d58261d9a93423e6436f.gif

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, virginton said:

I'm not glossing over the strength of League One at all.

I expect the nature of the rebuild to practically require a multi-year stint in the third tier. If we can get our house in order soon enough to make a serious run in the play-offs or better towards the end of Year 1, then that's great, but that should not be the priority.

This has got nothing to do with a title challenge and better days out: it's about equipping the club/business as a whole to be viable first and better run and resourced in the long run. A necessary accompaniment to this should be a commitment to attacking football, though not something as daft as a 'philosophy' or a demand for winning football. Just trying to and actually scoring goals on a regular basis would be a start on the pitch, while we move to a hopefully much better model off the park.

Equipping the club to be viable is obviously considerably more difficult if we're in League One rather than the Championship, on account of the massive difference in income. This isn't even up for debate, it's an objective fact.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, Dunning1874 said:

Equipping the club to be viable is obviously considerably more difficult if we're in League One rather than the Championship, on account of the massive difference in income. This isn't even up for debate, it's an objective fact.

100% correct. It makes absolutely no sense to follow the path of Falkirk. You only need to look at St Mirren under Tom Hendrie in 1999 when we were the bookies favourites for relegation and bounced our way to the League title. Saints were crippled with debts during that period and beyond. Relegation would have meant part time football. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×
×
  • Create New...