The Greenock Morton Thread - It's Better Than Yours

[Jag71]

McGinty getting a lot of love on here I see.

Terrible, terrible player. Disliked him from the first match I saw him play for Thistle.

Deceptively slow, clumsy and dreadful in the air for someone so big.

Plus, his head is too wee for the rest of his body. It's not right.

[Rudolph Hucker]

8 hours ago, Dunning1874 said:

For the first time this season a door has been opened; we are going to see this Morton team without that fucking disgraceful, abominable, excuse for a footballer McGinty getting near the pitch. The best thing that could possibly have happened was his suspension.

We will be favourites to lose the playoffs but we might just scrape through without that fucking idiot leaving the usual eight goal head start for the opposition defence.

funny, I would’ve thought the best thing that could’ve happened would’ve been us actually winning the match........

Still, at least it gave you something else to fixate on in the absence of Kalvin Orsi.  Every cloud, eh?  

[Monkey Tennis]

I'm interested to learn whether the feeling at Cappielow can still be characterised as great?

[vikingTON]

1 hour ago, Monkey Tennis said:

I'm interested to learn whether the feeling at Cappielow can still be characterised as great?

That depends on what you're asking about.

This time five/six months ago we seemed to be circling the drain as a football club in the clutches of a disinterested ownership who weren't too keen on keeping the lights on even until the end of the season. Now we're pretty close to a fan ownership deal that clears the monstrous debt of the Rae era and keeps the ground out of the hands of any private speculator. Assuming the terms set out are approved by the fan group's members and the deal is tied up then yes, there absolutely should be a great feeling about taking ownership/accountability for the football club for the first time ever. Particularly given that the alternatives presented as 'deals' not too long ago were merely different forms of the same death spiral.

Compared to that, the predictable floundering of a team put together by a crap ex-manager under the dung oversight of our soon-to-be ex-board is not really significant either way. We've had far worse on the park in 2013-14, and while we would likely not return at the first time of asking this time round, a full rebuild of the club behind the scenes is long overdue anyway. 

[Colkitto]

If we do go down only a buy out by the Easdales will get us back up.

Crawford we knew had no interest in the club, but to strip it back to almost Hugh  Scott levels is an utter disgrace. The only thing missing is a digger cutting up the Cowshed.

Hopkin played his part too of course with the squad he built. Wee Gus has used about every formation that can be used up front to get at least one of them scoring regularly.

We at least have a chance if we stay up, if not I can't see us in the Championship for the foreseeable future.  

  

[The Ghost of B A R P]

Let’s face it, going down would be a total disaster. The club needs gutted, but doing that while putting a competitive team on the park, with reduced prize-money and gate-receipts, is a tall order.

Give it six months and someone will be saying we should follow the ‘Arbroath model’.

Forget about ‘go down and rebuild’; we need to survive and rebuild, simple as that.

[vikingTON]

12 minutes ago, The Ghost of B A R P said:

Let’s face it, going down would be a total disaster. The club needs gutted, but doing that while putting a competitive team on the park, with reduced prize-money and gate-receipts, is a tall order.

You are aware that League One is a significantly lower standard of football than the Championship? That's how the vast majority of clubs who go down manage to do better the following season. They might have less prize money and resources than before but so do most of the clubs around them. 

To survive in the Championship next season on the other hand, we would most likely need to get the vast majority of our recruitment right across the board. How likely is this to happen when we are also changing board, appointing a chief executive and implementing a new business model? We would be weeks behind our rivals in squadbuilding at this level without any advantage in funding to compensate for this. Indeed we are already a couple of weeks behind by virtue of being in the play-offs. That disarray would be punished with another turgid campaign and almost certain relegation. 

You and many others who argue this have got the situation entirely the wrong way round then. The easiest way to undertake the complete rebuild needed behind the scenes this summer involves relegation to the dung level that the current nick of a club quite frankly belongs to. The onus is then on the new regime - representing the fans rather than some stupid sweetie company - to get the decisions right to rebuild the club after twenty years of accumulated dysfunction.  

It's also striking how many people who make this argument quite clearly haven't read the takeover proposal properly, because if you had then you'd note that gate receipts and prize money are not the make or break difference for this to work. It also requires continued fan buy-in, and there's not much worse for that than another of turgid, zero shots on target shitfesting under the guise of new ownership. 

A relegation to sign off the horrible extended Rae family's legacy to their patriarch is both deserved and in the better interest of the club going forward. 

[Dunning1874]

The "rebuilding is easier at a lower level because we're just circling the drain in the Championship" argument is predicated on the entirely false assumption that there's no risk of circling the drain in League One. Dismissing the possibility of following a Clyde like trajectory from here is just total complacency.

If we're managing a transition to fan ownership and restructuring the club against a backdrop of relegation to a League One containing two or three full-time sides (depending who wins the playoff) along with some big spending and/or well-run part-time clubs, while possibly going part-time ourselves, we are one bad managerial appointment away from total disaster.

The club has been a complete binfire off the park for over 20 years, fixing that is going to take a long time and it's obviously going to be considerably harder to do if we become a perennial third/fourth tier club rather than remaining in the Championship.

[vikingTON]

If you think that the new ownership can put out the binfire, bring in a whole new slate of competent officials from top to bottom behind the scenes - including a new chief executive and manager - and then put anything on the pitch that isn't massively disadvantaged to its rivals in an objectively tougher division next season then you are deluded. That's not a realistic option on the table.

The probabilistic choice then is between i) circling the drain next season and taking the plunge or ii) doing so now and giving the new ownership leeway in terms of first team pressures to get the structure and personnel right behind the scenes. And if that got us a sneak play-off run towards the end of next season or more, then all the better. The most important thing is categorically not what level we are playing in but rather getting the structure and business model right behind the scenes though. If we do not do this then the limit of ambitions for good will be Championship football. So no, let's not worry about not getting Inverness away for a couple of seasons. 

The first option will also completely kill the membership model that is a key part of the transition plan. I have absolutely no doubt about this: people are simply not going to continue chipping in for monthly subscriptions and at the gate for the exact same turgid rubbish as this campaign, only with a new set of folk in club ties in the main stand. That is unsustainable without delivering something that is not entirely fucking tedious on a weekly basis. 

Edited May 1, 2021 by vikingTON

[The Ghost of B A R P]

52 minutes ago, virginton said:

You are aware that League One is a significantly lower standard of football than the Championship? That's how the vast majority of clubs who go down manage to do better the following season. They might have less prize money and resources than before but so do most of the clubs around them. 

To survive in the Championship next season on the other hand, we would most likely need to get the vast majority of our recruitment right across the board. How likely is this to happen when we are also changing board, appointing a chief executive and implementing a new business model? We would be weeks behind our rivals in squadbuilding at this level without any advantage in funding to compensate for this. Indeed we are already a couple of weeks behind by virtue of being in the play-offs. That disarray would be punished with another turgid campaign and almost certain relegation. 

You and many others who argue this have got the situation entirely the wrong way round then. The easiest way to undertake the complete rebuild needed behind the scenes this summer involves relegation to the dung level that the current nick of a club quite frankly belongs to. The onus is then on the new regime - representing the fans rather than some stupid sweetie company - to get the decisions right to rebuild the club after twenty years of accumulated dysfunction.  

It's also striking how many people who make this argument quite clearly haven't read the takeover proposal properly, because if you had then you'd note that gate receipts and prize money are not the make or break difference for this to work. It also requires continued fan buy-in, and there's not much worse for that than another of turgid, zero shots on target shitfesting under the guise of new ownership. 

A relegation to sign off the horrible extended Rae family's legacy to their patriarch is both deserved and in the better interest of the club going forward. 

I see where you’re coming from... but I don’t agree.

Far too many assumptions built into your argument (not to mention the weird assumption that a contrary view means people haven’t thought about it properly).

First, we’re about to find out if L1 is a ‘comfortably lower standard’. If it is, Morton will surely overcome any team not good enough to win it and the problem goes away? Reality is, no one would bet on that, because the difference in standard is actually minimal.

Context for this is that the objective for the new regime in the Championship would be to finish 7th or 8th, whereas the objective in L1 would be to win it. Remember when we just pipped the mighty Stranraer? Remember the rage that would have removed Duffy at the first time of asking if we had failed?

All it takes is one other team down there getting their act together and the downward spiral begins... Look at Falkirk (apologies): bigger fan-base than us, bigger turnover... and absolutely dying on their arses, their supporters utterly baffled as to why they can’t get back into - and let this sink in - the second tier of Scottish football.

As for squad building: even this collection of misfits would have stayed up comfortably with the addition of a single credible option up front. Not saying it’s easy, but it isn’t exactly complex. The margins are that fine and that simple.

I’ve been a member of MCT since the launch, have read everything they’ve put out, and am well aware that the business model is predicated on continued financial support from us. But on top of what? Championship prize-money, a margin on season-tickets and gates... or significantly reduced income in the context of what is essentially a semi-pro set up?

You might be right that we would stabilise and find our way back; but the risks are massive and we’re just as, if not more, likely to head into Airdrie or Clyde territory.

It’s not about what we or the Raes ‘deserve’; it’s about what gives us the strongest base from which to recover.

We need to stay up at all costs.

[Venti]

17 hours ago, VivaLaDron said:

 

That's a fucking cracker mate.

[The Ghost of B A R P]

Posted my last before seeing exchange between Dunning and VT (which I won't quote to keep the thread short).

Seems to me there are two huge assumptions built into VT's argument (over and above the ones mentioned in the earlier post): 1. 'We'll eventually get relegated anyway, so we might as well go down now'; 2. 'Supporters are more likely to give financial support in L1 than the Championship'.

Again , that might turn out to be right, but there's nothing compelling about those arguments. As said earlier, if we could just about survive with this squad this year, why wouldn't we do better next? The second one is stranger, because there's another assumption built into it: the assumption that the football would be any less turgid in L1. Would it really?

Personally, I think the supporters are more likely to maintain their commitment on the back of a. staying up; b. the buy-out actually happening and the whole MCT thing becoming 'real'; c. the appointment of a manager who gives cause for optimism. Yeah, I know there are fairly substantial assumptions built into the last of those... but that surely has to be our 'best-case scenario'.

Getting relegated might not turn out to be a total disaster in the medium-term... but to argue that it's the best thing for us at this point in time is somewhere between 'bold' and 'plain wrong'.

[vikingTON]

1) The reason why we almost certainly wouldn't do better next season boil down to a) tougher competition financially (if we stay up, then the league replaces Alloa for Partick) 

b) the complete turnover of the club behind the scenes before we can even think about putting a squad together and

c) the huge delay in squadbuilding both this fact and the play-offs themselves create. 

And then even if the club got all of its ducks in a row, there is still no convincing reason to expect that the squad assembled wouldn't just be dung again. Expecting any if not all of these factors to not drag down next season's prospect is an unrealistic expectation. 

2) We mustered literally zero shots on goal in a must-win match just last night and it's not even remotely out of place in our season. It is not possible for the product to get any more turgid than this: you cannot achieve negative shots on target.

League One football is not a picnic but there is absolutely no reason why the club cannot select a manager who is willing to play an attacking style of football and for the manager to stick to that outlook. On the other hand, there is every incentive for the club to appoint a negative shitfester if we stay up; in fact, I'd expect McPherson to get the gig for a year to smooth the transition.

And with that miserable, 20 point campaign next season goes not just one season but the entire fucking premise of the fan ownership model. It's a no from me.  

Edited May 1, 2021 by vikingTON

[TxRover]

It’s an interesting pair of choices, but it fails to address another elephant in the room.

League One next year will potentially have a Falkirk being completely rebuilt and laser-focused on promotion and a Queens Park bankrolled for promotion. Assuming Cove roll over Morton in the playoffs, there would also be a perennial contender Airdrie and an always battling Alloa to fight as well. Waiting a year would potentially add either Brora or Kelty into that mix. The possibility is truly there for a multiple year sojourn in the seaside league (see Raith and Falkirk for details) on a Brechin like collapse.

The Championship next year will likely be less tightly grouped, with Partick and Hamilton replacing Hearts and Alloa. Ross County, Kilmarnock or Dundee are a wash, but the two certain additions are both likely to be top 5 teams. That certainly validates VT’s concerns with regards to a rebuild on the go.

Of the two, I suspect the latter, remaining in the Championship is the slightly less risky approach, but may result in a horrific season and a relegation next year.

[The Ghost of B A R P]

33 minutes ago, TxRover said:

It’s an interesting pair of choices, but it fails to address another elephant in the room.

League One next year will potentially have a Falkirk being completely rebuilt and laser-focused on promotion and a Queens Park bankrolled for promotion. Assuming Cove roll over Morton in the playoffs, there would also be a perennial contender Airdrie and an always battling Alloa to fight as well. Waiting a year would potentially add either Brora or Kelty into that mix. The possibility is truly there for a multiple year sojourn in the seaside league (see Raith and Falkirk for details) on a Brechin like collapse.

The Championship next year will likely be less tightly grouped, with Partick and Hamilton replacing Hearts and Alloa. Ross County, Kilmarnock or Dundee are a wash, but the two certain additions are both likely to be top 5 teams. That certainly validates VT’s concerns with regards to a rebuild on the go.

Of the two, I suspect the latter, remaining in the Championship is the slightly less risky approach, but may result in a horrific season and a relegation next year.

Where have we failed to address this invisible elephant? Said quite clearly at the outset that it only takes one team getting its act together in L1 to make it a really difficult proposition... two or three makes it much tougher than trying to finish 8th in the league above.

[TxRover]

4 minutes ago, The Ghost of B A R P said:

Where have we failed to address this invisible elephant? Said quite clearly at the outset that it only takes one team getting its act together in L1 to make it a really difficult proposition... two or three makes it much tougher than trying to finish 8th in the league above.

You addressed that, but you didn’t seem to clearly address the VT concerns of a possible horrendous season in the Championship...in a similar manner that he somewhat glossed over the strengthening of League One. I guess I could have phrased it better, but both sides are drumming the fears on one side and suggesting the other is sunshine and rainbows.

In either case, reconstructing the club is going to be a long and unthankful task.

[The Ghost of B A R P]

1 hour ago, TxRover said:

You addressed that, but you didn’t seem to clearly address the VT concerns of a possible horrendous season in the Championship...in a similar manner that he somewhat glossed over the strengthening of League One. I guess I could have phrased it better, but both sides are drumming the fears on one side and suggesting the other is sunshine and rainbows.

In either case, reconstructing the club is going to be a long and unthankful task.

Sure... but I guess if you’re a Morton (or Raith) supporter, the possibility of a horrendous season in the Championship can never be ruled out...

[Aufc]

Morton sounding a bit “falkirk-y” with the chat sounding like “aye lets go down because we can rebuild and walk the league”. League one will be tough next year. Suspect queens park will be the favourites with the rest scrapping for plays offs

[vikingTON]

I'm not glossing over the strength of League One at all.

I expect the nature of the rebuild to practically require a multi-year stint in the third tier. If we can get our house in order soon enough to make a serious run in the play-offs or better towards the end of Year 1, then that's great, but that should not be the priority.

This has got nothing to do with a title challenge and better days out: it's about equipping the club/business as a whole to be viable first and better run and resourced in the long run. A necessary accompaniment to this should be a commitment to attacking football, though not something as daft as a 'philosophy' or a demand for winning football. Just trying to and actually scoring goals on a regular basis would be a start on the pitch, while we move to a hopefully much better model off the park.

Edited May 1, 2021 by vikingTON

[vikingTON]

3 minutes ago, Aufc said:

Morton sounding a bit “falkirk-y” with the chat sounding like “aye lets go down because we can rebuild and walk the league”. League one will be tough next year. Suspect queens park will be the favourites with the rest scrapping for plays offs

Where is this chat exactly? Be extremely specific.