The Greenock Morton Thread - It's Better Than Yours

[vikingTON]

^^^ utter fantasist

[Rudolph Hucker]

15 hours ago, virginton said:

The first part skips over a rather big question that the club needs to answer about this transfer though. We need to know if they got any significant compensation for Cadden

Why do we, the fans, “need to know” this information? What difference would it make? What could  we do with that information? There will be dozens of players moving from club to club over the coming weeks, and in few cases will that information be made available.

MacKinnon is an experienced chief exec. Can’t be arsed checking to see if he was in place when Cadden was signed, but we have to trust that whatever contracts he is involved in will protect the interests of the club. We don’t have to know the details though. And, since there’s no future in the past, we don’t need to know in Cadden’s case, nor are we entitled to know.

[Skyline Drifter]

Was Cadden not out of contract? Presumably he had his contract extended to 31 July like all your other out of contract players and therefore technically needed a transfer unless this is a pre-contract we're discussing but he was effectively out of contract was he not? He's also 23 so too old for a solidarity training compensation. If you got anything for him it will have been buttons to get him out of a furlough contract early. They may not even have bothered. No real point unless they want him to start training with them now.

Edited July 5, 2020 by Skyline Drifter

[Skyline Drifter]

8 hours ago, Branch Ton said:

Send a scout up? How very old school. Deals in England are largely predicated on who beneficially owns the players transfer and image rights and what's in it for them and the agent.

Whit?

You know third party player ownership was banned by FIFA years ago right? Lower division English sides regularly send scouts round Scottish games.

[Toby]

1 hour ago, Rudolph Hucker said:

Why do we, the fans, “need to know” this information? What difference would it make? What could  we do with that information? There will be dozens of players moving from club to club over the coming weeks, and in few cases will that information be made available.

MacKinnon is an experienced chief exec. Can’t be arsed checking to see if he was in place when Cadden was signed, but we have to trust that whatever contracts he is involved in will protect the interests of the club. We don’t have to know the details though. And, since there’s no future in the past, we don’t need to know in Cadden’s case, nor are we entitled to know.

I’d say that if we have received payment for Cadden, it’s in Morton’s interest to let the fans know that they have.

MacKinnon has been quite open in admitting that it’s a failing from Hawke’s time that he didn’t want to repeat (perhaps not on the record, but certainly in conversation with fans), and the focus on signing guys like Lyon and Straps on extended deals suggests that.

I know you’ll take issue with that not being an exact definition of “needing” to know, but if it is one of the CEO’s main focuses, I’d hope he’ll be open enough to say if or if not the club have been successful in getting compensation.

[Rudolph Hucker]

35 minutes ago, Skyline Drifter said:

Was Cadden not out of contract? Presumably he had his contract extended to 31 July like all your other out of contract players and therefore technically needed a transfer unless this is a pre-contract we're discussing but he was effectively out of contract was he not? He's also 23 in September and played for Morton for one season. If you got anything for him it would be pretty trivial I imagine. The new story on the Forest Green website certainly implies some sort of compensation was given without outright saying it but I can't imagine it was very much.

What the Morton twerper message said was

 

 

Greenock Morton

 

@Morton_FC

Confirmation that Nicky Cadden has signed with Forrest Green Rovers. We had offered a 2-year deal with a healthy uplift prior to lockdown, but Nicky chose to exercise his right to move on. Well respected by everyone at the club and whilst disappointed we wish him well.

4:52 PM · Jul 3, 2020

 

 You’re right in saying that we wouldn’t be due very much, if anything, as we only had him for one (abbreviated) season, and he’ll be 24 in a couple of months. Would’ve been great to keep him, but I doubt we could compete wagewise. If we get a little bit of a payment for him, fine; if we don’t then it’s hardly the end of the world and means nothing with regard to any future dealings.

 

 

[Skyline Drifter]

7 minutes ago, Rudolph Hucker said:

What the Morton twerper message said was

 

 

Greenock Morton

 

@Morton_FC

Confirmation that Nicky Cadden has signed with Forrest Green Rovers. We had offered a 2-year deal with a healthy uplift prior to lockdown, but Nicky chose to exercise his right to move on. Well respected by everyone at the club and whilst disappointed we wish him well.

4:52 PM · Jul 3, 2020

 

 You’re right in saying that we wouldn’t be due very much, if anything, as we only had him for one (abbreviated) season, and he’ll be 24 in a couple of months. Would’ve been great to keep him, but I doubt we could compete wagewise. If we get a little bit of a payment for him, fine; if we don’t then it’s hardly the end of the world and means nothing with regard to any future dealings.

 

 

Sorry, I misread his age and didn't realise he was already 23. In this case you're entitled to nothing for him full stop. Regardless of whether you registered an offer or not. Over 23 = no compensation if he was out of contract.

They might have paid buttons to release him from his furlough contract before 31 July assuming he actually had agreed a furlough extension but that's all.

Will amend previous post as it's clearly nonsense.!

Edited July 5, 2020 by Skyline Drifter

[Rudolph Hucker]

8 minutes ago, Toby said:

I’d say that if we have received payment for Cadden, it’s in Morton’s interest to let the fans know that they have.

MacKinnon has been quite open in admitting that it’s a failing from Hawke’s time that he didn’t want to repeat (perhaps not on the record, but certainly in conversation with fans), and the focus on signing guys like Lyon and Straps on extended deals suggests that.

I know you’ll take issue with that not being an exact definition of “needing” to know, but if it is one of the CEO’s main focuses, I’d hope he’ll be open enough to say if or if not the club have been successful in getting compensation.

If MacKinnon or the directors choose to make it known then fine, it could be seen to be showing the club in a good light with regard to openness and transparency whatever the answer is, but as you say yourself there is no compulsion on the club to give out this information, nor have we any right to expect it as a matter of course. There’s a difference between being a nosy b*****d and being an entitled nosy b*****d.

[vikingTON]

1 hour ago, Rudolph Hucker said:

Why do we, the fans, “need to know” this information? What difference would it make? What could  we do with that information? There will be dozens of players moving from club to club over the coming weeks, and in few cases will that information be made available.

MacKinnon is an experienced chief exec. Can’t be arsed checking to see if he was in place when Cadden was signed, but we have to trust that whatever contracts he is involved in will protect the interests of the club. We don’t have to know the details though. And, since there’s no future in the past, we don’t need to know in Cadden’s case, nor are we entitled to know.

We don't have to trust anything of the sort. The onus is always on the club to show that their transfer strategy and contract policies are delivering a good outcome: whether that's in terms of on the pitch performances, or earning decent revenue from transfers, or a combination of the two. As it is, season 1 of our latest grand strategy resulted in a 7th place finish in a woeful standard of division and then two of the better players in that team almost immediately walking out the door. So if McKinnon wants anyone to buy into this project and sign up for season tickets next season, he'll have to do better than this brand of 'it's none of your business, sit down and eat your cereal' braying nonsense.

Edited July 5, 2020 by vikingTON

[Rudolph Hucker]

1 minute ago, virginton said:

We don't have to trust anything of the sort. The onus is always on the club to show that their transfer strategy and contract policies are delivering a good outcome: whether that's in terms of on the pitch performances, or earning decent revenue from transfers, or a combination of the two. As it is, season 1 of our latest grand strategy resulted in a 7th place finish in a woeful standard of division and then two of the better players in that team walking out the door. So if McKinnon wants anyone to buy into this project and sign up for season tickets next season, he'll have to do better than this brand of 'it's none of your business, sit down and eat your cereal' braying nonsense.

Sorry Champ, but the bit in bold isn’t nonsense, it’s just plain fact that no club has to do anything of the no such which, no matter how much you may proclaim otherwise.  Knowing the facts  of contract dealings won’t make a blind bit of difference to how many season tickets we sell; all that will matter is the perceived quality of the players who get those contracts and the price of the season ticket.
 

 

PS -  err, “braying nonsense”,  ffs?? Some free advice - your posts would be much better (well, some of ‘em at least) were you to cut down on the personal insults and the braying nonsense emotive language (especially when you’re wrong, like now). Just sayin’.

[Branch Ton]

1 hour ago, Skyline Drifter said:

Whit?

You know third party player ownership was banned by FIFA years ago right? Lower division English sides regularly send scouts round Scottish games.

Think Rui Pinto might have a document or two to contradict the efficacy of that ban. You seriously saying Cadden was "scouted".

[Rudolph Hucker]

4 minutes ago, Branch Ton said:

Think Rui Pinto might have a document or two to contradict the efficacy of that ban. You seriously saying Cadden was "scouted".

You seriously saying he WASN’T?? Get real here.

[Skyline Drifter]

11 minutes ago, Branch Ton said:

Think Rui Pinto might have a document or two to contradict the efficacy of that ban. You seriously saying Cadden was "scouted".

I have absolutely no idea what relevance you think Rui Pinto has to the signing of Nicky Cadden by Forest Green Rovers. Why on earth WOULDN'T he have been scouted? How do you think they saw him? From the extensive wall to wall Scottish Championship coverage on the tv?  Forest Green have definitely had a scout at some of our home games this season (could have been Morton, can't remember now). Lots of lower League English clubs regularly send a scout to Championship games.

[HoBNob]

2 hours ago, Skyline Drifter said:

Whit?

You know third party player ownership was banned by FIFA years ago right? Lower division English sides regularly send scouts round Scottish games.

Do scouts always have to make themselves known at games? 

1 hour ago, Skyline Drifter said:

I have absolutely no idea what relevance you think Rui Pinto has to the signing of Nicky Cadden by Forest Green Rovers. Why on earth WOULDN'T he have been scouted? How do you think they saw him? From the extensive wall to wall Scottish Championship coverage on the tv?  Forest Green have definitely had a scout at some of our home games this season (could have been Morton, can't remember now). Lots of lower League English clubs regularly send a scout to Championship games.

Aye, apparently wyscout has chown Cadden in a good light this year. 

[Dunning1874]

Huge fan of the idea that the main driver behind English clubs signing lower league Scottish footballers is the extensive money to be made from their image rights. All those millions of pounds to be made from sponsorship deals and advertising using the image of Michael Rose, Kieron Bowie or Nicky Cadden.

[Skyline Drifter]

22 minutes ago, Grant228 said:

Do scouts always have to make themselves known at games? 

Aye, apparently wyscout has chown Cadden in a good light this year. 

That's a fair point actually, They probably can get hold of footage through Wyscout to an extent. Never the less I think we can safely say they'll also look at players in person.

As for scouts, depends what they are doing and whether they want in free. Normal practice is for clubs to request a complimentary ticket for their scout when they send one, A scout could go and pay in without telling anyone of course but that seems a little unlikely!

Also if the Scout is planning on filming footage of the player / team they will need to identify themselves on arrival, otherwise there's every chance they'll find themselves removed from the ground by either stewards or the SPFL / SFA Enforcement Officers for taking illegal footage of games.

So in short, if the scout is prepared to pay in and doesn't want to film anything then he could easily go and watch without notifying anyone but I'd bet good money that doesn't happen very often.

[Finlay21]

1 hour ago, Skyline Drifter said:

That's a fair point actually, They probably can get hold of footage through Wyscout to an extent. Never the less I think we can safely say they'll also look at players in person.

As for scouts, depends what they are doing and whether they want in free. Normal practice is for clubs to request a complimentary ticket for their scout when they send one, A scout could go and pay in without telling anyone of course but that seems a little unlikely!

Also if the Scout is planning on filming footage of the player / team they will need to identify themselves on arrival, otherwise there's every chance they'll find themselves removed from the ground by either stewards or the SPFL / SFA Enforcement Officers for taking illegal footage of games.

So in short, if the scout is prepared to pay in and doesn't want to film anything then he could easily go and watch without notifying anyone but I'd bet good money that doesn't happen very often.

When doing complimentary tickets last season we had on average half dozen scouts picking up tickets every home game , mainly Scottish clubs , always had at least 1 from south of the border 

[Toby]

You wonder why, with money at such a premium in these parts, scouts are given comps by our clubs.

I can understand the courtesy of someone from other clubs in the division being given comps if it’s reciprocated in order to have a look at opponents for a forthcoming game, but the thought of someone from Forest Green phoning up Cappielow and asking for a free ticket in order that they can pick up our best player for hee haw as his contract runs down doesn’t strike me as a very smart move. At least fleece the b*****ds for their £20 into the ground instead of rolling over and getting the belly tickled.

[Rudolph Hucker]

Thing is, every club does it. Could be a bigger club coming to look at one of our players, could be our scout going to say Hibs or Aberdeen to look at one of theirs on loan. 

We'd lose a bit of goodwill if we were the only one (or one of only a few) not giving out comps to scouts. Hugh bloody Scott tried stopping comps, remember, and there was a lot of negative comment from other clubs at the time - though that may well have been just because it was Hugh bloody Scott. 

Edited July 5, 2020 by Rudolph Hucker

[Toby]

7 minutes ago, Rudolph Hucker said:

Thing is, every club does it. Could be a bigger club coming to look at one of our players, could be our scout going to say Hibs or Aberdeen to look at one of theirs on loan. 

We'd lose a bit of goodwill if we were the only one (or one of only a few) not giving out comps to scouts. Hugh bloody Scott tried stopping comps, remember, and there was a lot of negative comment from other clubs at the time - though that may well have been just because it was Hugh bloody Scott. 

Very true, and I suppose you’re probably right with the analogy that reverses the roles.

In the instance of a Forest Green Rovers though, a club that we’ve never had any previous dealings with, it seems a bizarre unwritten rule (if it is the case) that they can just expect to collect freebies by sending an e-mail to whichever club they please though.

I dare say many of us have benefitted from free tickets from time to time, but it’s one of the few things I don’t think Scott was completely wrong about. Some clubs will benefit more than others from arrangements like this, so just accepting payment across the board balances everything out fairly. I understand that if a club is talking about spending £100,000 on one of our players we’d stick a couple of briefs in an envelope of course, but not in this instance. And why players’ parents and girlfriends get tickets to see them at their work is beyond me, but there’s another issue.