RedLichtie86 Posted September 28, 2015 Share Posted September 28, 2015 I dont see an 18-24 team leagues in tiers 1 and 2 being that big a problem. People refer to meaningless games like they are some sort of virus that will destroy the whole fabric of scottish football, clubs folding left, right and centre...............Armageddon. But in all honesty right now a lot of fans turn up to games to watch their team play, and the football can be quiet pish for weeks on end, but we still go because we love our teams. Dundee United vs Livinigston will probably get the same amount of fans as Dundee Utd vs ICT if it was a meaningless game or not. We go the games regardless. Right now fans are bored out of their minds watching the same teams over and over again. No matter which division your club is in. Yes the chance of reaching the playoffs or avoiding relegation adds excitement or pure dread, But we leave ourselves no room on the park to develop players, tactics, excitement... its win at all costs or we fail mentality. for instance we have a 12 team SPL, a team in 6th position in March could have a few bad results and you could be within a few points of relagation. In an 18 team league with 3 relegation spots, that same team could have the same amount of bad resuts but will be most likely still be safe from relegation. This results in less pressure on the manager, players and fans. Those meaningless games can be used to bring a young player off the bench to gain some much needed first team experience, to start games, rest key players for a cup semi or final, or maybe try something new in anticipation for next season. Its far to dog eat dog right now, managers have barely any room to breath when making team selections and too many youth players forced into high pressure games without experience, or left to rot on the bench as the manager is desperate for results and uses the more experienced players. Its especially brutal in the lower leagues as you can be only a couple of loses from relegation or failing to reach the playoffs. Bigger leagues gives teams a chance to plan long term for promotion in 2-3 seasons, Not the current short term look of one season plans. You never know, a good few young players could actually develop their game, not discarded after barely playing a game for their clubs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShawfieldAggro Posted September 28, 2015 Share Posted September 28, 2015 Still no support for 3x14 then....the prospect of giving anything a reasonable period of time (5 years???) has to be tempered with a gradual change as opposed to a sweeping reclassification. If, three years into my suggestion (which would involve two automatic relegation places, and third-bottom playing third-top in the next division) we find ourselves with more than half a dozen clubs with a serious eye on what they'd do if and when promoted, then looking at further top-flight expansion could never be discounted. As of the moment, taking Rangers and Hibernian out of Tier 2, there are no such clubs. Falkirk, St. Mirren, Raith and conceivably Morton really ought to have this mindset....as should Dunfermline, Airdrie and Ayr. Those clubs are as guilty of contributing to the stale nature of the game as the clubs who were accused of pulling the ladder up any time they were in the SPL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
itzdrk Posted September 28, 2015 Share Posted September 28, 2015 The game is set up in the best way it can be right now. None of the bigger leagues sound appealing whatsoever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RabidAl Posted September 29, 2015 Share Posted September 29, 2015 People refer to meaningless games like they are some sort of virus that will destroy the whole fabric of scottish football, clubs folding left, right and centre...............Armageddon. But in all honesty right now a lot of fans turn up to games to watch their team play, and the football can be quiet pish for weeks on end, but we still go because we love our teams. Dundee United vs Livinigston will probably get the same amount of fans as Dundee Utd vs ICT if it was a meaningless game or not. We go the games regardless. Right now fans are bored out of their minds watching the same teams over and over again. No matter which division your club is in. Yes the chance of reaching the playoffs or avoiding relegation adds excitement or pure dread, But we leave ourselves no room on the park to develop players, tactics, excitement... its win at all costs or we fail mentality. for instance we have a 12 team SPL, a team in 6th position in March could have a few bad results and you could be within a few points of relagation. In an 18 team league with 3 relegation spots, that same team could have the same amount of bad resuts but will be most likely still be safe from relegation. This results in less pressure on the manager, players and fans. Those meaningless games can be used to bring a young player off the bench to gain some much needed first team experience, to start games, rest key players for a cup semi or final, or maybe try something new in anticipation for next season. Its far to dog eat dog right now, managers have barely any room to breath when making team selections and too many youth players forced into high pressure games without experience, or left to rot on the bench as the manager is desperate for results and uses the more experienced players. Its especially brutal in the lower leagues as you can be only a couple of loses from relegation or failing to reach the playoffs. Bigger leagues gives teams a chance to plan long term for promotion in 2-3 seasons, Not the current short term look of one season plans. You never know, a good few young players could actually develop their game, not discarded after barely playing a game for their clubs. Agreed. Still no support for 3x14 then....the prospect of giving anything a reasonable period of time (5 years???) has to be tempered with a gradual change as opposed to a sweeping reclassification. If, three years into my suggestion (which would involve two automatic relegation places, and third-bottom playing third-top in the next division) we find ourselves with more than half a dozen clubs with a serious eye on what they'd do if and when promoted, then looking at further top-flight expansion could never be discounted. As of the moment, taking Rangers and Hibernian out of Tier 2, there are no such clubs. Falkirk, St. Mirren, Raith and conceivably Morton really ought to have this mindset....as should Dunfermline, Airdrie and Ayr. Those clubs are as guilty of contributing to the stale nature of the game as the clubs who were accused of pulling the ladder up any time they were in the SPL. You might as well include your own club in that list ShaAggr: used to have a decent support and could still if they ever put the club back in the community. But then they'd face the same difficulties as the clubs you mention, who're always either looking over their shoulders at not being relegated (rather than establishing themselves in the higher league) or are trapped in a fan-draining third tier. It's daft that our league structure isn't big enough to comfortably accommodate all potential full-time clubs in the top two tiers. __________ One possible 3x14: Everyone plays each other once at home, once away for 26 games. Leagues split into top 9 and bottom 5. Top 9 play each other once more for 8 more games and 34 in total; bottom 5 play each other twice more for 8 more games and 34 in total. 17 home league games per club. Could sit alongside 'league-challenge-cup-sections' (from other thread), which could make up 4-5 games. Could be better than current split as 9 teams in the top section mean those in 7th, 8th and 9th aren't cut off from putting in a challenge for Europe as they are now; also, bottom 5 playing each other home and away over 8 games would retain, and possibly improve, relegation drama - 2 from 5 are relegated, 2 survive, 1 goes into play-offs with 3rd, 4th and 5th of the division below. Premiership Championship Conference 1 CL 1 PR 1 PR 2 EL 2 PR 2 PR 3 EUPOFH 3 POSF 3 POSF 4 EUPOSFH 4 POSF 4 POSF 5 EUPOSFA 5 POSF 5 POSF 6 6 6 7 7 7 8 8 8 9 9 9 Top 9 (splits after 26 games; 4h, 4 a post-split, by playing each other once) 10 10 10 Bottom 5 (splits after 26; 4h, 4a post-split, by playing each other twice) 11 11 11 12 POSF 12 POSF 12 POF 13 RL 13 RL 13 RL 14 RL 14 RL 14 RL There are odd numbers in each section, so teams finishing 9th and 10th (pre-split) could be the ones scheduled to miss out the last round of fixtures since they are least likely to be involved in decisive games on the last day. The fixtures for the top 9 could be pre-determined, based on merit of the pre-split league positions. For example, home games (allocated on merit of league position at the split): 1st vs.: 2nd, 4th, 6th, 8th. 2nd vs.: 3rd, 5th, 7th, 9th. 3rd vs.: 4th, 6th, 8th, 1st. 4th vs.: 5th, 7th, 9th, 2nd. 5th vs.: 6th, 8th, 1st, 3rd. 6th vs.: 7th, 9th, 2nd, 4th. 7th vs.: 8th, 1st, 3rd, 5th. 8th vs.: 9th, 2nd, 4th, 6th. 9th vs.: 1st, 3rd, 5th, 7th. It would take 9 match-days to get through fixtures for the 'top 9' sections; 10 match-days to get through the fixtures for the bottom 5s. Overall benefits would be: - more variety in fixtures within a season (only playing teams 3 times for the most part, and more teams within each division); - more variety of fixtures across seasons with more promotion and relegation; - enough space in the top two tiers to accommodate all full-time clubs comfortably (if they get their acts together); - enough space within each division for clubs to establish themselves without imminent threat of relegation; - delivers 3 national divisions (which the majority of fans usually say they want) whilst keeping all current clubs involved - symmetry throughout the leagues. -------------- Or, you could turn that on its head by having qualifying for the Top 5 as being a target in each division by the end of 26 games. So the top 5 in each division would play home and away for 34 games in total, with the bottom 9 playing each other just once more (but still 4 home games guaranteed) for 34 games in total. The issue with a top 5/bottom 9 split in divisions of 14 would be giving the teams in the bottom section something positive to play for if they weren't directly involved in the relegation battle. This might require 6th place (i.e. top of the bottom 9) qualifying for something - a European play-off if in the top tier, a promotion play-off place if in tiers 2 or 3. For example, introducing 'play-off ladders' of one-off games based on merit of final league position: 6th plays away at 5th, the winner plays away at 4th, the winner then plays away at 3rd, with the winner taking the final European place (or, the two finalists taking the two European places, depending upon the outcome of the Scottish Cup). With promotion from tiers 2 and 3 you'd also be looking at the top team of the bottom sections of 9 (i.e. 6th in the division) qualifying for an away play-off with 5th, the winner playing away at 4th, the winner playing away at third, and the winner of that either playing away at 12th from the league above or playing at a neutral venue. As they're one-off games, they could be played Wed-Sat-Wed-Sat immediately after the end of the season, and they'd be finished more quickly than our current play-offs. Premiership Championship Conference 1 CL 1 PR 1 PR 2 EL 2 PR 2 PR 3 EUPOH 3 POH/A 3 POH/A 4 EUPOH/A 4 POH/A 4 POH/A 5 EUPOH/A 5 POH/A 5 POH/ATop 5 (splits after 26 games; 8 games post-split; 34 in total) 6 EUPOA 6 POA 6 POA Bottom 9 (splits after 26; 8 games post-split; 34 in total) 7 7 7 8 8 8 9 9 9 10 10 10 11 11 11 12 POH 12 POH 12 POF 13 RL 13 RL 13 RL 14 RL 14 RL 14 RL A 34-game league season would also be more amenable to a trial of summer football, be it just a smaller adjustment of an extended winter break and starting up in July with league cup sections, or going the whole hog (at least for a trial period) with February cup sections and a March start to the league season proper. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EdTheDuck Posted October 10, 2015 Share Posted October 10, 2015 I dont see an 18-24 team leagues in tiers 1 and 2 being that big a problem. People refer to meaningless games like they are some sort of virus that will destroy the whole fabric of scottish football, clubs folding left, right and centre...............Armageddon. But in all honesty right now a lot of fans turn up to games to watch their team play, and the football can be quiet pish for weeks on end, but we still go because we love our teams. Dundee United vs Livinigston will probably get the same amount of fans as Dundee Utd vs ICT if it was a meaningless game or not. We go the games regardless. Right now fans are bored out of their minds watching the same teams over and over again. No matter which division your club is in. Yes the chance of reaching the playoffs or avoiding relegation adds excitement or pure dread, But we leave ourselves no room on the park to develop players, tactics, excitement... its win at all costs or we fail mentality. for instance we have a 12 team SPL, a team in 6th position in March could have a few bad results and you could be within a few points of relagation. In an 18 team league with 3 relegation spots, that same team could have the same amount of bad resuts but will be most likely still be safe from relegation. This results in less pressure on the manager, players and fans. Those meaningless games can be used to bring a young player off the bench to gain some much needed first team experience, to start games, rest key players for a cup semi or final, or maybe try something new in anticipation for next season. Its far to dog eat dog right now, managers have barely any room to breath when making team selections and too many youth players forced into high pressure games without experience, or left to rot on the bench as the manager is desperate for results and uses the more experienced players. Its especially brutal in the lower leagues as you can be only a couple of loses from relegation or failing to reach the playoffs. Bigger leagues gives teams a chance to plan long term for promotion in 2-3 seasons, Not the current short term look of one season plans. You never know, a good few young players could actually develop their game, not discarded after barely playing a game for their clubs. If only you had suggested a League Cup group stage and "we wuz good in the 1960s" you'd have won cliché bingo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedLichtie86 Posted October 15, 2015 Share Posted October 15, 2015 If only you had suggested a League Cup group stage and "we wuz good in the 1960s" you'd have won cliché bingo Ah but i was born in the 80's so have no idea if it was good in the 60's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
effeffsee_the2nd Posted October 15, 2015 Share Posted October 15, 2015 Don't bother mate, any suggestion of change is laughed off, so what if something didn't quite work 35 year ago? Things are different now , we have wall to wall sky TV coverage, football for a lot of people now is nothing more than a computer game. a lot of fans are scunered with playing the same teams 4 times a season yet the prospect of dropping 3 or 4 home games depending on you're league has clubs shiteing themselves. The league cup groups were unpopular with teams in European action, safe to say that problem does not exist now. I don't see why its such a sin to have something where you only have 1 other team from your league , you're seeding is based on you're league performance , can guarantee teams a few games and make up for the drop in league games whilst being a wee bit different from the big cup. But hey different version of this didn't work in 1981 so theres nae fcuking way it will ever ever ever work now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tree house tam Posted October 16, 2015 Share Posted October 16, 2015 Why are folk against the split ? It's great. If you make top six you play the best teams, usually with more fans. Plenty incentives there. It spices up from 4th to say 8th place at a time in the season when they realistically aren't getting relegated or winning the title. St Johnstone have certainly enjoyed it. Might not think that if we never made it every year mind you. Surely it's something to strive for, then go for European slots. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wilky1878 Posted October 16, 2015 Share Posted October 16, 2015 Why are folk against the split ? It's great. If you make top six you play the best teams, usually with more fans. Plenty incentives there. It spices up from 4th to say 8th place at a time in the season when they realistically aren't getting relegated or winning the title. St Johnstone have certainly enjoyed it. Might not think that if we never made it every year mind you. Surely it's something to strive for, then go for European slots. I'm not against a split but I wouldn't have a split an essential part of any restructuring and I'm sure most people are the same Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
effeffsee_the2nd Posted October 16, 2015 Share Posted October 16, 2015 Its not the worst thing in the world. Id rather not have it. The league lies just a tiny bit with splits. The best competition would just be a simple round robin. Also theyre kinda just there to pad out the season with games for the sake of games Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tree house tam Posted October 16, 2015 Share Posted October 16, 2015 The split works. It makes things interesting for those involved. Before my team was involved in it i thought it was a bit shit but it really does work . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DA Baracus Posted October 22, 2015 Share Posted October 22, 2015 The split adds nothing though. Before it teams still played for the same things, and often the same teams (example: 1999 we played Hearts at Tynecastle in the 3rd last game of the season, with us sitting bottom and Hearts only 4 points above us*). These sort of games regularly still happen without the split. Teams will still contest relegation battles (especially now with the playoff place) and fight for European spots without the split. It's a pointless nonsense. *We lost 2-0 and were relegated (the following week I think). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EdTheDuck Posted October 22, 2015 Share Posted October 22, 2015 The split has been mismanaged from day one; the SPL and now the SPFL have tried to pretend that our league just continues as a single ladder after the split. It doesn't. They should be selling the good points of the split (peer-vs-peer, deciders for euro spots/relegation places/play-off places) but they really don't. ...mind you they don't fucking sell any aspect of Scottish football so why would they start now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nakamura Posted November 22, 2015 Share Posted November 22, 2015 I like a lot about OP's idea. 16 team league is a pure win from fan perspective, IMO. 30 games, less repetition. Tighter table simply because there are fewer points to go around. Fewer games between contenders, which again leads to tighter table at the top in most seasons. It would be considerably more interesting, in my personal opinion. Downsides IMO are mainly from revenue perspective. Smaller TV money portions, fewer games, fewer 'marquee' games that TV broadcasters want to show. I like the OP's idea of replacing those games by returning the group stage to the league cup. I would go one step further and maybe be a little less fair to some teams, but I think it would be more interesting to fans and TV broadcasters, and better for TV money: make the group stage regional and about rivalries. Celtic - Rangers in the same group, Hearts - Hibs in another group together, Dundees in another group, etc. 16 club Premiership, 30 games 16 club 2nd division, 30 games 10 club 3rd division, 36?? games -- or maybe do a split table there.. or maybe add extra clubs (not sure if there even are 6 clubs in regionals that might want to move up?) The season starts in early or mid July, depending on international tournaments that year. ~6 week winter break. The season starts with League Cup's group stage. 42 clubs are split into 8 regional groups, most of them have 5 teams each, two weaker groups have 6 teams each. Home and home between all clubs in each group, in total 8 or 10 games. One team survives and advances into final 8. Or maybe 2 teams survive and advance into final 16. Basically, what you have is a bunch of games between local rivals early in the season. Which is why I prefer only 1 team surviving, higher stakes for games between rivals. Of course, the downside of only 1 team surviving is that many teams will find themselves with no chance of advancing halfway through, so in that sense 2 spots per team could be better. After the League Cup group stage (around late August? depending on the year) you have league games, all the other cup games, everything like today, except the league season is shorter and there is a winter break. Overall, I just want a shorter league with a winter break. But for that to happen, games have to be replaced somehow, and they have to be replaced with games that TV broadcasters will care about, i.e. rival games. So the League Cup change may not be fair for some teams who might never get out of a Celtic-Rangers or Hearts-Hibs groups, for example. But the main purpose of that change is to have more rival games, so that the Premiership change might be more feasible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
effeffsee_the2nd Posted November 22, 2015 Share Posted November 22, 2015 The falkirk chairmans now on board! The bit where he talks about puting vested interests aside yet is in charge of one of the clubs that could benefit most from it was a bit funny but never mind. I've had 2nd thoughts about the league cup, groups aye but not 5 team groups as that would be full of the dreaded dead rubbers. i would go for 2 possibly 3 tiers of 16 nationwide divisions then regional below that, all with promotion and relegation between them, with that in place theres no longer the rigid 42 club format so you can do what you like with the league cup, i'd have the top 40 qualify, ie tier 1 & 2 plus top 8 in division 3 . bellow that dont make it into the hat. the 4 european sides get a by. remaining 36 play in 9 groups of 4. 9 group winners plus 3 best runners up join the euro teams in last 16. final played in early november. all teams given a seeding based on the previous seasons league position. also big teams in the scottish cup from round 3 in short. start in middle july with league cup sat-wed-sat format league starts in august league cup final in november xmas and new year derbys january break scottish cup later rounds and buisness end of the league from then on. all domestic football concluded the week before the european cup final Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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