Granny Danger Posted March 25, 2016 Share Posted March 25, 2016 Perhaps in order to avoid a situation where another creditor could block a CVA? That was the first reason that sprung to mind anyway. I think the idea is that someone couldn't get a significant grant, benefit by selling off all or part of the club, then the buyer not having any liability. The 'grants' are effectively loans a part of which that are written off each year. At the present rate it will take United about 35 years to have the whole thing written off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deeboy Posted March 25, 2016 Share Posted March 25, 2016 Perhaps in order to avoid a situation where another creditor could block a CVA? That was the first reason that sprung to mind anyway. What legal right does the 'grant' giver suddenly have once administration is entered to then go 'hud on, ehm due £1.75m tae, eh want it back'? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Waffelz Posted March 25, 2016 Share Posted March 25, 2016 Get the snake out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dee Dee Posted March 25, 2016 Share Posted March 25, 2016 Get the snake out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Connolly Posted March 25, 2016 Share Posted March 25, 2016 What legal right does the 'grant' giver suddenly have once administration is entered to then go 'hud on, ehm due £1.75m tae, eh want it back'? Legally, it's a loan. It's effectively the same as a grant, but in terms of creditors, it's still debt, and would be treated as such in that event. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deeboy Posted March 25, 2016 Share Posted March 25, 2016 Thank you Mark. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Connolly Posted March 25, 2016 Share Posted March 25, 2016 Thank you Mark. You're welcome. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tree house tam Posted March 25, 2016 Share Posted March 25, 2016 Debt freeeeeee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RawB93 Posted March 25, 2016 Share Posted March 25, 2016 & relegation free. That's the Darren Guaranteeâ„¢ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deefiant Posted March 25, 2016 Share Posted March 25, 2016 This is my favourite bit. The bit of reassurance that follows this paragraph comes across as being composed by a man sticking a bet on with both fingers in his ears, eyes closed and shouting lalalalala repeatedly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alert Mongoose Posted March 26, 2016 Share Posted March 26, 2016 A new low. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jagfox Posted March 26, 2016 Share Posted March 26, 2016 I think this is one of my favourite posts in the whole thread. Utd were linked with Scott Fox and Kyle Letheren but both signed elsewhere. This was seen as a good thing by DABs at the time. If only they knew eh?! Share your favourite memories of the thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tallpaul Posted March 27, 2016 Share Posted March 27, 2016 Chairman Grant McKenzie attended the Dundee United Annual General Meeting as the appointed representative ofArabTRUST. Associate Director Colin Stewart was also in attendance, as was treasurer Gavin Muir who attended in his capacity as a Dundee United shareholder.Grant attended with a prepared list of nine questions which was compiled and approved by the ArabTRUST board. However, shareholders were advised at the outset of the meeting that there would be a limit of two questions per shareholder. A full list of the questions we intended to ask will be published at the end of this summary - we have been advised that the Dundee United board will endeavour to answer our remaining questions. Following the opening introductions made by Dundee United chairman Stephen Thompson in which he expressed the board's disappointment at the club's current situation in the league, the formal process of adopting the club's accounts, re-electing Justine Mitchell as a director and the amendment allowing the board to set the remuneration for the club's auditor took place. The shareholders in attendance adopted the accounts, voted for Justine Mitchell's re-election to the board and the amendment regarding the auditor was also passed. The chairman then opened to the floor for questions. Grant McKenzie was the given the opportunity to ask two questions. The first question was as follows: As various interest free directors loans have been repaid during the year can the board explain the governance around the decision to repay these loans and why the directors believed this was in the best interests of Dundee United to repay these loans when the company are paying 6% interest to the outstanding loan note holders? Director Mike Martin explained that the decision taken was down to the way in which they restructured the finances and in his view was not a question of governance. He then went on to talk about the club's previous bank debt and the unhealthy position that the club was in as a result. Mike talked about the restructure of the finances and that the loan notes, which have interest attached, replaced the bank debt and that there was separate agreement that the Thompson family's interest free loans would be repaid at the first possible opportunity. Grant subsequently asked ArabTRUST's second question. We understand that the debt peaked at as much as £7.3m in 2007, that £1.4m was written off by the bank and there are loan notes of £1.25m still outstanding. Therefore, we arrive at an effective cash reduction in overall debt of approximately £4.5m (£3.1 m if you include operational losses of £1.4 m during the period). Given the unprecedented transfer income of approximately £9m gross (less related costs around believed to be anywhere up to 25%) that has come into the club, beginning with the transfer of David Goodwillie, do the board feel that they have failed due to the inability to control costs, clear the debt completely and make any real investment in securing the long term future success of the club and what steps are the board taking to secure investment into the club? Stephen Thompson began the board's answer by stating that transfer fees reported in the press are not always accurate and that every transfer is strictly confidential. He said that the club is in negotiations and working on a number areas with regard to the 'going concern' aspect and the subject of investment into the club. Mike Martin then went on to describe the board's strategy. He described the club's plan as multi-faceted but underpinned by the finances. Mike then discussed the club's budget which he said is based on football achievements and various other income streams. He then explained that the club budgets to make an operating loss. Mike then told shareholders that the club then looks at additional streams of income that we would hope would close that operational loss and offer an opportunity to invest and that those income streams are performances in cups and transfer income. The auditor then commented reiterating many of the points mentioned previously and that they believe a number of decisions taken such as the financial restructuring and the GA Arena investment have been a good use of funds. He also stated that the auditors are happy with how things were accounted for in terms of the transfer income. There then followed questions from the other shareholders on a number of subjects with the subject of transfer income and debt being discussed first. In particular, there was a question regarding the transfer income brought in and the debt that remains. A shareholder asked if the club is willing to set out for the wider support as to what has happened in terms of clubs finances. Stephen Thompson reiterated that the auditors have seen that everything is accounted for and he also talked about some of the points raised in previous answers regarding football ambition and the balance between this and debt reduction. There then followed a discussion in which a shareholder spoke about how a profit of nearly £4m has translated to a reduction in debt of only £0.9m and they appealed for as much transparency as possible with supporters. Stephen Thompson responded by saying that the club has been open with supporters and is one of the most open clubs in the premiership about club business but that there is a limit. Director David McGrory went on to echo the comments of the chairman saying the there is a limit to the information the club can make available to supporters despite the desire to be open. There was then a question on the subject of "going concern" in which it was asked, with a note regarding the anticipation of a tougher trading position in the current and upcoming financial years, if the board has considered following other clubs by going into administration. Stephen Thompson answered by saying that the board has not and does not consider that an option. The next question followed on the subject of this financial year and the potential impact relegation would have. Stephen Thompson explained that performances on the park have had an impact on the finances of the business. He also stated that there will be funds required next year regardless of where we are competing and that they are looking at that area and remains confident that they will have the funds to take the business forward in the future. He then clarified that we will make a net loss and an operating loss in this financial year. Mike Martin added that costs will be down but our revenues will also be down. There was then a follow up on the subject of SPFL parachute payments. The next question was on the topic of a director of football at the club. Stephen Thompson began his answer by stating that there are only two clubs in the premiership with a director of football on the board. Namely, Aberdeen and Hearts. He then said that it had been discussed previously at an AGM and by the board and that it is himself and David Southern who deal with the head coach on a day to day basis. Stephen said that the club are open to idea of a director of football. He also confirmed that the budget has been set for next season. It was clarified that it will be reviewed come the end of the season. There then followed a question about the operational losses of over £700,000 in a year in which we reached the League Cup Final – which a shareholder estimated was worth £500,000 in income – and so it would suggest that without that income the operational loss would have been £1.2m. They asked what the board were doing to bring the operating losses to at least a break even situation and if we will see a time in coming years where the club will make a profit without cup runs or transfer income. Stephen Thompson began his answer by stating that the club has only made an operating profit twice in the last 18 years. He then went on to say that in order to get to an operating break even situation there would have to be cuts to wages. He also discussed the structure of the club and stated that the whole club is under review but that if we reduce the budget it would impact the club's performance on the field. There was then a question regarding the situation with Stevie Campbell. Stephen Thompson said that they cannot comment on this due to the legalities surrounding the process. The next question was on the subject of TV games with the club set to have its sixth on Sunday and that will mean no further televised games. Stephen Thompson said he will look into the SPFL rules regarding this. There then followed a question regarding the potential for poor season ticket sales as a result of a loss of confidence in the board. Stephen Thompson began his answer by saying that season tickets are a big part of the income of the club and that not buying season tickets will damage the club in terms of revenue. He went on to say that they will be reviewing season ticket sales in the coming weeks following the recent launch and that they will look to engage with supporter groups. He continued by saying that it was up to individuals to make the choice regarding season tickets and that the club will have to push hard to get supporters to buy. Justine Mitchell went on to talk about the re-engagement with ArabTRUST and the Federation of Dundee United Supporters' Clubs following a breakdown in communication last year and that the board view communication with supporters as very important. There then followed a question regarding the head coach's position in the event of relegation. Stephen Thompson stated that it would be unfair to comment on an employee. The question was then asked why the club gave Mixu Paatelainen the length of contract they did considering he was unemployed and if there were any clauses regarding termination. Stephen Thompson said that contracts are confidential. The next question asked was regarding the comment earlier that the club will make a net loss for this financial year. The shareholder spoke about the post balance sheet event regarding the sales of Nadir Ciftci, John Souttar and Ryan McGowan which the club anticipate will provide a profit on these transfers of approximately £1.2m and therefore projected operating losses would be higher than £1.2m. The shareholder then asked if they have factored potential semi final money into their assumption that would lead to a loss for the current financial year. Stephen Thompson said that income is also down on the previous year by £1.1m. To which the shareholder responded by saying in the last seven or eight years it has varied by 10-15% and therefore a drop in the region of 20% appears quite a large drop. Mike Martin came in saying that TV games, as an example, will be several hundred thousand pounds down on previous year's income. It was then asked for clarification on whether the semi final income including TV income is factored into the projection of a net loss for the financial year. Mike Martin's responded that it included some semi-final money. Next there was a question regarding funding and whether the funding would be on a loan basis or would take the form of investment in unissued shares that the questioner estimated to be worth £660,000 that the club could sell. David McGrory answered by saying all options are open and under consideration. The final point raised was to thank Derek Robertson for his contribution to the club and to the board and asked if those present were able to offer up a prayer for him and his family. Stephen Thompson subsequently paid tribute to Derek and said how sorely missed he is around the club and the boardroom. ArabTRUST AGM Questions Below is the complete list of the questions Grant McKenzie intended to ask on behalf of ArabTRUST. It is hoped that we will receive answers to these questions from the Dundee United board. 1) As various interest free directors loans have been repaid during the year can the board explain the governance around the decision to repay these loans and why the directors feel this was in the best interests of DUFC to repay these loans when the company are paying 6% interest to the outstanding loan note holders? 2) We understand that the debt peaked at as much as £7.3m in 2007, that £1.4m was written off by the bank and there are loan notes of £1.28m still outstanding. Therefore, we arrive at an effective cash reduction in overall debt of approx. £4.5m (£3.1m if you include operational losses of £1.4m during the period). Given the unprecedented transfer income of approximately £9m gross (less related costs believed to be as high as 25%) that has come into the club, beginning with the transfer of David Goodwillie, do the board feel that they have failed due to being unable to control costs, clear the debt completely and make any real investment in securing the long term future success of the club and what steps are the board taking to secure investment into the club? 3) We have received feedback from a growing number of supporters stating that they will not buy season tickets regardless of the league division we play in due to a breakdown in confidence in the board and chair . What actions are the present board going to take to minimise the consequent financial implications? 4) Is there a breakdown available that shows wages and salaries split between football and non - football staff and can the board explain why administrative expenses have increased by £165,326? 5) The club faces two scenarios - relegation to a lower division or to continue in the Premiership. Can the board please outline the financial and other management strategies which the board has in place now to ensure the club is capable of functioning under each of these scenarios and how, in a practical sense, these strategies will be deployed along with their perceived impact on the day to day running of the club both on and off the park? 6) Can each director please explain their current role at the club and how they have contributed to the performance of the club? 7) While the upgrading of the then Gussie Park is to be applauded in many ways, could the board explain why they thought it was a good use of the club's money to invest in this when proper engagement with United for All earlier could have allowed grant funding to have been used for a sizeable part of the project? As there is no Director of Football with professional experience on the board, can the board explain how they oversee the football operations within the club? 9) Can the board give a guarantee that there will not be any cuts to the budget for the youth academy in the next few years? Surprised nobody has commented on this.So ST has called in loans his father put in probably with no intention off reclaiming and they continue to pay 6% interest on the soft loans while his interest free loans are paid back first.So if Utd go down and require investment it wont be through the Thomson family as has previously stated and will be at 6% if they find a lender.Not quite looking as rosy as some have thought. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RawB93 Posted March 28, 2016 Share Posted March 28, 2016 Fair play to anyone who reads that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
itzdrk Posted March 28, 2016 Share Posted March 28, 2016 I too will be renewing but will wait until I get my SQA markers money in July. I get a funny sense of guilty pleasure when I fail hundreds of students and then use that money to support United. Late to this but Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tree house tam Posted March 28, 2016 Share Posted March 28, 2016 Fair play to anyone who reads that. I did. Basics are the Dayglos are fucked and the Baldy snake is a Baldy snake. Bye bye DABS, I'm waving. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigmouth Strikes Again Posted March 28, 2016 Share Posted March 28, 2016 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigmouth Strikes Again Posted March 28, 2016 Share Posted March 28, 2016 It was a lie as well, I did read it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tallpaul Posted March 28, 2016 Share Posted March 28, 2016 Main points from the war and peace posted. ST has called in the interest free directors loans his father put in while running the club and these have taken priority over the soft loans at 6% interest. The club is also expecting to make a loss this season even with factoring in a semi final appearance and 1.5 million worth of player sales. As funny as it is to see the almost weekly meltdowns coming out of Tannadice,the news that the Thomson family debt has taken priority over interest paying loans certainly would call into doubt wether he has the best interest of the club at heart. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tallpaul Posted March 28, 2016 Share Posted March 28, 2016 Utd Mad always a good drop off point when bad news hits.Boycotts,setting up leverage season ticket fund,admin oh and setting up a singing section in the shed.Utd Mad a forum that just keeps giving and giving. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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