An Independent Scotland must focus on education. MUST.

[Hampden Diehard]

Getting an education is not wholly about getting a job.

Aye, but it's 99% of it. It's all well and good producing graduates in things that people want to do like media studies (aye, I know, what a cliche) and computer games design, but if there's no job at the end of it, your degree isn't worth much. Unless you manage to get into teaching or change tack completely.

Sadly, the Scottish Government has let the further education colleges and students down with its annual decrease in funding and the shambles of mergers and disastrous and costly changes in red tape. Universities continue to be well-funded as do higher education students, certainly in comparison to further education.

But the bottom line is, you produce people to fill job vacancies. Five years on some really enjoyable course that leads to no job isn't really the best use of resources, and only leads to frustration. Applicants for basic jobs where I work are all-too-often far too qualified.

I know from experience that employers can't fill starting-level vacancies with people who can read and write to an acceptable degree. That needs to be sorted out too.

[Antiochas III]

So tell me what company are you head of recruitment for?

[I'm Brian]

If you stop jumping down my throat for 10 seconds you'd realise I'm not disagreeing with you.

I'm saying that successive governments in Scotland and in the UK are so obsessed with university education to the exclusion of everything else that they are missing the bigger picture of where our plumbers, electricians etc are going to come from. If we were producing a generation of stunning talent who then go on to create new businesses and jobs then that would be great but as pointed out, we are producing mediocrity from our universities.

I'm talking only about what universities are producing so I'm not sure what you're getting at with the bit in bold.

You have waded in and accused me of something I've not said. Where have I ever said that you can't have a successful career without a degree? I believe it is HARDER to start a good career without a degree but I've never said you must have one. Calm down and at least read what I'm saying before piling in.

BTW I don't have a chip on my shoulder about anything or anyone but it doesn't concern me that you or anyone else thinks I do.

I certainly don't have a chip on my shoulder about young people. They should simply build some experience of both work and life FIRST before being allowed the keys to government office.

In what possible way could that be described as unreasonable?

You lost my interest when the examples of jobs that don't need degrees, you gave were plumbers etc. Why those particular professions? That just reeks of academic snobbery.

Some of the most knowledgeable people I have ever had the pleasure of working under had no degree. The worst bosses I have had, have been degree qualified . There are very few jobs in my mind that require a lengthy period of study to make you better at them.

I've lost count of the amount of people, fresh out of uni, coming into companies with their big ideas, waving their degree certificate, only to run away with their tails between their legs shortly after. They seem to think that their four years at uni is in some way qualifies them to radically alter a business that has operated successfully for years without them, or their ideas that they have picked up in a lecture theatre.

The only requirements people need in a job are a passion to succeed and a willingness to learn and adapt. No degree course will teach you these skills.

Don't get me wrong, I have met many really good people with degrees, however they would have forged a successful career with or without a degree.

If a 2:1 is mediocre then you are describing about 85% of the student population as mediocre. Harsh by anyone's standards. By definition a 2:1 has to be above average.

You are probably right we are in some way agreeing, but my focus would be on getting talent into the workplace as early as possible on apprenticeships. Learn the job early and then let them do their studies. The money that is spent on people doing degrees that will inevitably lead them into a job at McDonalds or the like, would be better spent funding apprenticeships and vocational education.

As for your point about MP's it is so ridiculous it is unreal. If you are good enough, you are old enough.

Brian Donohoe was my MP. He fitted your description of someone who was fit to hold office. He was the biggest buffoon you were ever likely to meet, and was not fit to hold office. Your argument really does reek of ageism, regardless of how you try to paint it.

[Fide]

All this chat about varying shades of degrees is really rather shit, teebs.

[Fide]

Fabulous contribution.

There are plenty of other threads for you to piss about on.

Why don't you go there.

I'm more than happy to piss about in multiple threads.

[I'm Brian]

Above average for what?

350,000 a year graduate with that degree.

As Ad Lib and I both stated (and provided evidence for), the overwhelming majority of graduates get at least a 2:1.

By definition that is the average grade. I'm using the word mediocre in place of average to signify run of the mill, nothing special.

Exactly as you've done with your patronising comment about fresh grads waving their certificates only to run away with their tails between their legs.

It seems you're trying to argue from both sides of the fence.

You seem to omit the part where I said I have come across people with degrees that have been beneficial to a workplace. Talk about selective quoting.

My comment isn't patronising in the slightest. It is factual

Explain to me this then. How can 85% of the degree attaining population be average or below? It cannot be by definition. A certain percentage of those 2:1 graduates must be above average.

[strichener]

Above average for what?

350,000 a year graduate with that degree.

As Ad Lib and I both stated (and provided evidence for), the overwhelming majority of graduates get at least a 2:1.

By definition that is the average grade. I'm using the word mediocre in place of average to signify run of the mill, nothing special.

Exactly as you've done with your patronising comment about fresh grads waving their certificates only to run away with their tails between their legs.

It seems you're trying to argue from both sides of the fence.

The entire population, not just those that attend uni.

[I'm Brian]

Eh?

Why is talking about plumbing snobbery? That is a great job - highly skilled and unbelievably well paid.

It's one of the best examples of how you can be successful in a highly technical job without a degree. That's why I used it.

Electricians fall into the same category. I genuinely have no idea why you have a problem with these examples.

Musician would be another one although much harder to attain. Art again is another but much harder to make a success from.

Would you have preferred I mentioned those? Personally I thought I'd be better off sticking to realistic jobs.

Now THAT bit in bold is a great example of having a chip on your shoulder.

So not scientists or engineers or a myriad of other professions where people can start at the bottom without a degree and work their way up.

[Carl Cort's Hamstring]

So not scientists or engineers or a myriad of other professions where people can start at the bottom without a degree and work their way up.

Some of the most competent people I worked with in labs didn't have degrees, but without one you'll hit a glass ceiling fairly quickly in medical sciences.

[I'm Brian]

Some of the most competent people I worked with in labs didn't have degrees, but without one you'll hit a glass ceiling fairly quickly in medical sciences.

Both myself and my sister worked in labs, I also spent a good number of years working in an educational establishment, and I agree with you. But this is where the vocational education comes into play.

I always found that companies in science were always more than willing to fund staff to do degrees.

I will always argue and my experience is that people who learn their trade and do their studies as part of their job are always better in their profession than a graduate just out of uni.

[DigOutYourSoul]

I'd say it depends on what your idea of your career path is. I knew when I started at Uni that my end goal was to become a chartered accountant (I know). The only realistic way to achieve that is to go to uni, get a degree, and hope that a company takes you on when you graduate and are willing to pay the fees for further training (thankfully for me they were).

I know so, so many people who I went to Uni with who had no idea what so ever what they wanted to do with their life. a Sociology or Politics and English degree has led them to work full time in McDonalds or some other lower paid job with no real prospect of getting a job in what they studied. The problem with these sort of degrees is that there is no obvious path to go down after you finish - no real career path linked with the degree so when you come out your options are minimal in terms of employment.

I also agree that a 2:2 in most subjects is pretty much as good as nothing in the work place.

[Anonapersona]

You lost my interest when the examples of jobs that don't need degrees, you gave were plumbers etc. Why those particular professions? That just reeks of academic snobbery.

Some of the most knowledgeable people I have ever had the pleasure of working under had no degree. The worst bosses I have had, have been degree qualified . There are very few jobs in my mind that require a lengthy period of study to make you better at them.

I've lost count of the amount of people, fresh out of uni, coming into companies with their big ideas, waving their degree certificate, only to run away with their tails between their legs shortly after. They seem to think that their four years at uni is in some way qualifies them to radically alter a business that has operated successfully for years without them, or their ideas that they have picked up in a lecture theatre.

The only requirements people need in a job are a passion to succeed and a willingness to learn and adapt. No degree course will teach you these skills.

Don't get me wrong, I have met many really good people with degrees, however they would have forged a successful career with or without a degree.

If a 2:1 is mediocre then you are describing about 85% of the student population as mediocre. Harsh by anyone's standards. By definition a 2:1 has to be above average.

You are probably right we are in some way agreeing, but my focus would be on getting talent into the workplace as early as possible on apprenticeships. Learn the job early and then let them do their studies. The money that is spent on people doing degrees that will inevitably lead them into a job at McDonalds or the like, would be better spent funding apprenticeships and vocational education.

As for your point about MP's it is so ridiculous it is unreal. If you are good enough, you are old enough.

Brian Donohoe was my MP. He fitted your description of someone who was fit to hold office. He was the biggest buffoon you were ever likely to meet, and was not fit to hold office. Your argument really does reek of ageism, regardless of how you try to paint it.

I can relate to this. I got myself an ordinary degree then got myself a job. So while my buddies were going for their Honors, I was getting actual real world experience. That decision was the best one I ever made. However, we're talking early nineties so maybe things have changed.

It's always funny when someone fresh out of university tries to point out where our flaws are and how they're going to be the great savior. It's even funnier when they realize that the business world is very different from a classroom. I'm a software developer btw.

There was a time when I was part of the interview process when we needed new recruits. For me it was simple. I'd give then a problem solving test and gauge their personality.

[I'm Brian]

Well your advice to a young person would be don't become an MP until you are 40 and have achieved "life experience" from the Oaksoft book of the world.

Genuine question.

What do you actually do for a living?

[AUFC90]

With respect, this isn't the 1980's anymore.

The vast majority of jobs nowadays in science and engineering require a very good degree.

Even people with PhDs find it extremely tough to get good jobs in science.

There will always be a few who manage to have successful careers in these professions and I have never said otherwise.

What I AM saying is that without a very good degree it is increasingly difficult to secure those jobs in the first place AND unless you eventually go and do the degree later in life, you'll almost always hit a barrier.

That's the reason I didn't pick on those two professions. I picked two professions where you genuinely could reach the top without even going to college. That seemed a more reasonable and realistic set of examples.

Attempting to suggest that you can become a top scientist or engineer without getting a degree is misleading at best and would constitute really shit advice to a young person.

It's about half and half for engineering. Heck, you can even become a chartered engineer with an HND and plenty of years experience.

[pandarilla]

Well your advice to a young person would be don't become an MP until you are 40 and have achieved "life experience" from the Oaksoft book of the world.

Genuine question.

What do you actually do for a living?

That's some level of deflection right there.

[RedRob72]

I'm not an unreasonable person but if you want an genuine answer form me on something you're going to have to stop talking to me like a c**t.

Tell us what you do though Oakey, you usually have such a high opinion of yourself, it must be something pretty important!?

[I'm Brian]

I'm not an unreasonable person but if you want an genuine answer form me on something you're going to have to stop talking to me like a c**t.

Whether you are unreasonable or not, some of your views certainly are and you seem unwilling to change them.

So I won't annoy you any further. Tata

[Ira Gaines]

I'll give oaksoft a guide to getting talked to like a c**t. Bigots are c***s. Oaksoft is a bigot. Oaksoft is a c**t. See? So you'll get talked to like one because you are one.

HTH

[AUFC90]

I'm not an unreasonable person but if you want an genuine answer form me on something you're going to have to stop talking to me like a c**t.

There's as many, if not more, apprenticeship/trainee engineering jobs as there is graduate engineering jobs. I know more engineers who have had great careers without a degree, it's not the be all and end all.

[AUFC90]

Tell us what you do though Oakey, you usually have such a high opinion of yourself, it must be something pretty important!?

I'm sure he said he has a degree in some sort of laboratory type subject. Can't remember exactly.